That strange thing called taste

[thisglimpse]

Isn't it funny how the more poetry you read, the less you like?

A rookie can hang out in General Poetry or the Pink Palace and have a great time. They find the poems fascinating and wonderful, they write raving (if somewhat empty) crits. An "experienced" poet - a true "lover" of poetry - goes to General Poetry and gets grumpy.

The more you read, the less you like. The folks who post to General think the stuff in Pink Palace is crap. The folks who post to Gen C&C think the stuff in General is crap. The folks who post to High think the stuff in Gen C&C is crap. And so on... I wouldn't be surprised to find a few people -- probably the best-read, most experienced poets -- who think everything posted here is crap. And maybe one person who thinks everything that's been written in the last twenty years is crap.

Apparently, the more you love poetry, the less you love poems.

?

thisglimpse

who is reading more -- and liking less -- at the advice of more experienced poets. Who think what he writes is crap.

;)

(PS - this post is written in a spirit of fun. If anyone gets all huffy and defensive, jeez, take a bathroom break.)

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by thisglimpse

Isn't it funny how the more poetry you read, the less you like?


I’m not certain about that, but this much I realize: the more poetry I read, the less I like mine.

Tony

[HowardM2]

" the more you love poetry, the less you love poems. "

No. The more you love poetry, the less you love poorly-written poems.

[Rachel Bunting]

I’m not certain about that, but this much I realize: the more poetry I read, the less I like mine.

Tony

The more poetry I read, the less I like yours, too, Tony!
;)

Rachel
no, really, I love it.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by rachelb

The more poetry I read, the less I like yours, too, Tony!



Careful - you're only a few toll plazas away.

[Rachel Bunting]

:D

Oops.
I take it back, I swear it!

Behaving again,
Rachel

[Donner]

What Howard said.

What I love about reading at such a varied board as PFFA is watching the people who start out posting to General who learn a few things about what makes poetry work and not work, and who then start posting to the Generals C&C based on what they've learned, and who then earn a few more things and eventually start posting work to High. I love that. I tend to enjoy reading in General C&C more because you can see the possibilities. I like looking at the possibilities. I also happen to post to the Generals C&C, believing that my work might have possibilities.

I'm also a tad delusional most days. :)

Donner

[earthshoes]

Originally posted by Donner
What Howard said.

What I love about reading at such a varied board as PFFA is watching the people who start out posting to General who learn a few things about what makes poetry work and not work, and who then start posting to the Generals C&C based on what they've learned, and who then earn a few more things and eventually start posting work to High. I love that. I tend to enjoy reading in General C&C more because you can see the possibilities. I like looking at the possibilities. I also happen to post to the Generals C&C, believing that my work might have possibilities.

I'm also a tad delusional most days. :)

Donner
What she said.

Mary
A LOT delusional.

[thisglimpse]

No. The more you love poetry, the less you love poorly-written poems.

Ah. But the more poems you read, the more you think are poorly-written.

[Steven]

Originally posted by thisglimpse
Isn't it funny how the more poetry you read, the less you like?

A rookie can hang out in General Poetry or the Pink Palace and have a great time. They find the poems fascinating and wonderful, they write raving (if somewhat empty) crits. An "experienced" poet - a true "lover" of poetry - goes to General Poetry and gets grumpy.

The more you read, the less you like. The folks who post to General think the stuff in Pink Palace is crap. The folks who post to Gen C&C think the stuff in General is crap. The folks who post to High think the stuff in Gen C&C is crap. And so on... I wouldn't be surprised to find a few people -- probably the best-read, most experienced poets -- who think everything posted here is crap. And maybe one person who thinks everything that's been written in the last twenty years is crap.

Apparently, the more you love poetry, the less you love poems.

?

thisglimpse

who is reading more -- and liking less -- at the advice of more experienced poets. Who think what he writes is crap.

;)

(PS - this post is written in a spirit of fun. If anyone gets all huffy and defensive, jeez, take a bathroom break.)

This post did make me laugh, ta.

I never thought of it that way; the sense of going 'I want to be a High Critique poet.'

Is that what inspired Philip Larkin, for example? Would it have had he been born into an age of graded internet forums?

Is that sort of motivation of detriment to the poet himself?

I reckon.



Steve

[pr]

Hmm.

The more good* poetry you read, the more discerning a reader you become. Hence, the more discriminating a reader you become.

We are not only here to learn how to write poetry. We're also here to learn how to read it. After having spent considerable time at the PFFA, you read poetry with a critic's eye, rather than a laymen's eye.

Your judgement of all poetry becomes more penetrative and analytical. You also become far more self-critical. This can have a detrimental effect on your enjoyment of poetry, and also your self-confidence as a writer.

However, I draw confidence from the fact that I am able to understand and appreciate the techniques involved in creating good poetry. I am able to employ these techniques in my own work, and identify them in the work I read.

I think this type of progression can be seen in all art forms.

Of course, we can always make concessions when reading work by less experienced or younger writers. This is done to a certain extent here at the PFFA (by way of tiered forums) -- okay, not necessarily concessions, but less penetrative, possibly less extensive criticism, certainly.

I still enjoy all levels of poetry: for what it is. What I can't stand is pretension. Poetry which claims to be, or displays itself, as more than it really is.

*Of course 'good' here is subjective, depending on how much experience you have -- which is the issue at the heart of this threat.

[thisglimpse]

I guess it's true about most things. The coffee in my mug next to this keyboard is Colombian, hand-picked, hand-roasted, shade-grown, organically raised coffee. And since I started drinking it, I can't swallow Folgers anymore. Same goes for beer. Happily, I can still drink wine from a box. And enjoy a cheap cigar.

It's just peculiar to me that the more we love the essence of a thing (what a great abstraction, it must mean nothing) the fewer versions of that thing - be it beer, poetry, paintings, coffee, or sculpture - we enjoy.

Perhaps we should be more defensive of our own bad taste. Would we enjoy ourselves more?

thisglimpse

who is still playing devil's advocate

[Harry R]

Originally posted by thisglimpse
I guess it's true about most things. The coffee in my mug next to this keyboard is Colombian, hand-picked, hand-roasted, shade-grown, organically raised coffee. And since I started drinking it, I can't swallow Folgers anymore.

Now that is a good analogy.

Why drink Bells when you can have 15-year-old Laphroaig?

Harry
mmmm, peaty

[Alasdair]

Originally posted by Harry R
Now that is a good analogy.

Why drink Bells when you can have 15-year-old Laphroaig?

Harry
mmmm, peaty

And why drink Bells when you can use it to unblock the sink?

The more I read good poetry the more I realise why my poetry isn't good :( but also the more I realise what I should do to make it better :)

If only I could the damn ideas into practice.

I think that reading bad poetry is instructive in other ways. I didn't realise the damage that abstractions and cliches did until I read the 10th poem in 2 days with the words "soul", "beauty" and "love" all present.

Al.

p.s. Harry, try 18-year-old Macallan

[Harry R]

Originally posted by Alasdair

p.s. Harry, try 18-year-old Macallan

Yeah, that's nice, too.

But as I'm not drinking at the moment, I'll have to stick to this stuff -

Flowery aroma, subtle, winey flavour. Hints of apricot. It is light and flowery with, believe it or not, hints of muscatel and Darjeeling.

Harry

[antidora]

" the more you love poetry, the less you love poems. " thisglimpse

No. The more you love poetry, the less you love poorly-written poems. (Howard)

and now that we all have our beaks and claws honed to razor-sharpness, why not try posting to fluff sites likehttp://pub8.ezboard.com/bthecriticalpoetsmessageboard

Mind your beaks and claws don't get stuck in the molasses.
And don't forget to take your insulin.

best wishes
antidora
who posted there when PFFA crashed. Met rachelb. We clung together like orphans in the (treacle) storm.

[jerriep]

Everyone should take criticism, here as anywhere, with a grain of salt, just as you should likewise take praise.

What we need to remember, is that each person has a different opinion. Then we take in account, the objectivity, the training, the credentials of the critique or the praise.

It would be very difficult to objectively judge poetry. We all have our preferences, after all. And then we get into the theory of
"first learn the rules, then break them".

I find that some of the poetry I most enjoy is posted on forums you wouldn't expect. Do you also see that much of what we would call "badly written" poetry comes straight from the heart?
Makes us uncomfortable! I sometimes wonder if these lost souls, seeking catharsis through poetry, will suicide themselves if someone doesn't reach out a hand of SOME saving grace to their poem. But then, this isn't a therapy site, after all. We are at liberty to be cruel.

In becoming sophisticated in our tastes, must we forsake the simple pleasures? I see, from some of the postings, that expensive equates with quality. Not always so. Nor does "refined" always equate with good poetry. It's a matter of personal taste.

[thisglimpse]

Do you also see that much of what we would call "badly written" poetry comes straight from the heart?

When your kindergartner draws a picture of you and scrawls across the top of it "I luv my momy" then gives it to you, that portrait comes from the heart. And you exclaim over it with the glowingest of praise and treasure it forever. You don't critique her sense of color, or point out that mommy's right leg is much shorter than her left, or even correct her spelling. To do so would be insensitive, and your child will probably stop drawing altogether. She will certainly stop drawing for you.

On the other hand, you don't send her picture to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Or the newspaper, arts magazine, or local gallery. That would be ridiculous, or delusional. That picture probably doesn't make it past your refrigerator. And it shouldn't. That's where things that come straight from the heart belong - in private. Close to the heart. Not in public -- not in the world of critique, judgement, skill, and craft.

I am not bold enough to pronounce which work -- the one in the gallery or the one on the refrigerator -- is a greater work of "art." But I do think that publishing a refrigerator poem is about as silly as hanging a Van Gogh on your refrigator.

I wish more people understood this.

[Jordana]

Originally posted by jerriep
It would be very difficult to objectively judge poetry. We all have our preferences, after all. And then we get into the theory of "first learn the rules, then break them".
I find it's fairly easy to objectively judge poetry at this site. The whole layout of these forums and, most importantly, the ideals behind them create an environment where objectively judging poetry can be second nature.

Do you also see that much of what we would call "badly written" poetry comes straight from the heart? ... I sometimes wonder if these lost souls, seeking catharsis through poetry, will suicide themselves if someone doesn't reach out a hand of SOME saving grace to their poem. But then, this isn't a therapy site, after all. We are at liberty to be cruel.
But criticism is not inherently cruel.

And wouldn't any "lost souls" who are "seeking catharsis through poetry" benefit a great deal more from counseling than from a critical poetry site?

In becoming sophisticated in our tastes, must we forsake the simple pleasures?
What do you consider "simple pleasures?"

J

[Jee Leong]

Originally posted by thisglimpse
Isn't it funny how the more poetry you read, the less you like?

I suppose I may like 'less' in the sense of 'fewer poems' but I find I enjoy more deeply the ones I do like. After the first flush of excitement, I return to these poems, read them and like them even more. The Pleasure Quotient for poetry is still high.

Jee Leong