Mr. Basho Goes to Washington: or, Everyone's favorite poem-form waxes patriotic

[Porter Doran]

For more fodder toward a poetic theory of tabula rasa -- or at least an hypothesis that the human mind could not be capable of poetry as bad as it excretes without careful tending thereto -- behold these paragon "haiku's [sic]" from "Mrs. Moss's class['s] contemplation ... What It Means to Be an American" (and a thought: could a proclivity for cliche have some genesis with the very names children are given?):

I'm American
free to choose and pick my way
I am always free -- Philip

I'm American
I go to school everyday
I'm glad to be free -- Taylor C.

I'm American
I am proud to have freedom
Free to choose and be -- Brittany

I'm American
I have freedom
This country's the best -- Josiah

I'm American
Freedom mean I get to vote
I can choose my dreams -- Fallon

I'm American
I'm glad to think for myself
Freedom to be me -- Samantha

I'm American
Freedom means the best to me
I pledge allegiance -- Amanda

I'm American
Freedom means the world to me
Long may the flag wave -- Taylor G.

I'm American
We have a lot of freedom
I can choose my path -- Jordan

I'm American
Glad to be free and to choose
Free to seek my way -- Yesenia

I'm American
Glad to be free and to choose
We have freedom here -- Kayla

http://isd.cusd10.madison.k12.il.us/renfro/To_Be_An_American.htm

[River Not]

Originally posted by Porter Doran
...without careful tending thereto...

indeed, O brother dear, it would seem that ye have a tendency to attend that tending, perhaps.

snickerdoodle.

[antigone507]

Your link doesn't work.

[Porter Doran]

Thank you Antigone. One must put "[i]" tags outside "[url]" tags, it seems.

[Harry R]

this one seems particularly ironic in context -

I'm American
I'm glad to think for myself
Freedom to be me


Topical Ameriku -

because life's sacred
we kill those who kill others
because life's sacred

[Dunc]

I was sort of looking for this one -

I'm American
and our great Constitution
lets us be Muslims.

Still looking. Regards / Dunc

[mattj]

Originally posted by Dunc McReil
I was sort of looking for this one -

I'm American
and our great Constitution
lets us be Muslims.

Still looking. Regards / Dunc

you might be looking for a while, my friend.

matt

[mattj]

Originally posted by Harry R
this one seems particularly ironic in context -




Topical Ameriku -

because life's sacred
we kill those who kill others
because life's sacred

That wasn't on fox "news", was it?

matt

[Tony Smith]

I'm American.
I meddle, murder and steal.
Need another loan?

[Kemmer]

I don't know what's more stunning: the fact that a teacher thinks this is poetry, possibly haiku... or the fact that Mrs. Moss thought this drivel was worthy of posting on a website!

The year I was ordered to have every one of my first-graders write a poem for a school-wide holiday book, nobody, not even the students who had to dictate their work, produced this level of treacle. That was in a low-performing, inner-city school.

Where's your outrage, people??? The "I'm American fill-in-the-blanks" format is pedagogically unsound. The level of thinking is slightly below Pre-K, and the "jingoism 101" attitude is unacceptable in a free society.

And, just think. In a few years, Mrs. Moss's self-esteem fattened brats will be in Junior High. They will post in Merciless and whine that they've been "published poets" for years. *gag*

(This is a kindergarten class, isn't it? Please don't tell me they're first graders.)

We're doomed.

Kemmer

[mattj]

"Jingoism 101".
Thank you Kemmer.
Start 'em young, I think Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of our machine.
Where's my outrage?
I probably gave up on even that last march.

matt

[pr]

Obviously I
want to be American
because I'm English.

Hey, I'm patriotic.
I live in the 51st state.

God save President what's-his-face!

[antigone507]

Originally posted by pr
Obviously I
want to be American
because I'm English.

Hey, I'm patriotic.
I live in the 51st state.

God save President what's-his-face!

There are those who consider Puerto Rico the 51st state--you'll have to get in line for that *ahem* honor.

God save our country from President what's-his-face.

[Tony Hoffman]

The other thing that gets me about Mrs. Moss's class project is that apart from the beginning "I'm American", every single one of those "Haikus" mentions either "free" or "freedom". Mind you, I'm all for freedom (so long as it doesn't stomp on other people's rights or the common good), but I wonder what would have happened if one of the kids had come up with some dissenting view of what it is to be an American.

--Tony

[Urizen]

Don't worry, folks, in a few years' time these kiddies will be riddled with shame and guilt over the simple accident of having been born American, thanks to idiotic threads like this.

Bill

[mattj]

To quote Lucinda Williams @ Salt lake City, July, 03:
"...get the fuckin' fraternity guy out of the whitehouse...."

Originally posted by pr


God save President what's-his-face!

[mattj]

One thing that wouldn't have happened:
Mrs. Moss damn sure wouldn't have posted it on her web site.

matt

Originally posted by Tony Hoffman
but the whole presentation reeks of coercion--a class of little pod-people. (I wonder what would have happened if one of the kids had come up with some horribly dissenting view of what it is to be an American.)

--Tony

[mattj]

The thoughts expressed are idiotic because you don't agree with them?

Originally posted by Urizen
Don't worry, folks, in a few years' time these kiddies will be riddled with shame and guilt over the simple accident of having been born American, thanks to idiotic threads like this.

Bill

[Sestina]

It all reminds me of a funny thing that happened to my eldest in kindergarten last year.

Last September 11th they had a memorial service for 9/11 at the firehouse next to the school and all the kids got to go.

Rather than going over the events (quite rightly) with the class, my daughter's kindergarten teacher said that it was a celebration of how lucky they all were to be American and how America was the best nation in the world.

She then wondered why my daughter put her hand up.

"But Miss, I'm not American, I'm English" piped up Becky, aged 5.

The redfaced kindergarten teacher then had to backtrack and say how of course England was also a wonderful place and there were plenty of other wonderful countries in the World as well as America.

Made me laugh, anyway!


Sestina

[Norman_D_Gutter]

I'm a bit confused as to what the objection(s) are here. That the poems are bad? That the poems deal with a subject that should not be addressed in poetry? That the conclusion of the 2nd grade poets differs from the conclusion of the posters to this thread? That 2nd graders should not be encouraged to write haiku? That 2nd graders should not be encouraged to write poetry that would be bad for an adult to write? That love of country can transcend love of its current head of state? All, or most, of the above?

BTW, do 2nd graders not own the copyrights to their work? Or does one give up ones copyright when posting to the Internet? Or are bad poems not worthy of copyright? Or is it just assumed that 2nd graders will not be defending their copyrights?

Best Regards,
NDG

[Donner]

The haiku encouraged in schools around the country is psuedo-haiku and doesn't resemble classic haiku in any way, shape or form--except that they're 3 line "poems" consisting of a 5-7-5 syllable pattern. It's a far more complex form than second graders can possibly comprehend, and allowing them to think they're writing poetry when they're writing schlock, does them a huge disservice.

Beyond that, the assignment is typical of the current educational trend toward "groupthink" rather than individualism. It starts early and continues up the ranks until those who were taught concensus will soon be the ones teaching it. Huzzah.

Donner

[earthshoes]

I'm a homeschooler (four kids---13, 11, 8, and 4) so obviously I hold no great love for the public school system (cookie cutter philosophies abound), but neither do I possess any great malice. I also began subsitute teaching last year to supplement our family's income. It was an eye-opening experience. The teachers, even in our small town of 2000 or so, are up against huge odds (drugs, poverty, indifferent parents, administrative expectations). Additionally, they are expected to do more than just teach. I have an e-mail around here listing all the responsibilities of a teacher these days. They look alot like those of a parent. We are asking an awful lot out of people who make somewhere around 29,000 to 35,000 dollars a year.

I'm a little bothered by tone of this thread. It's hard to tell who or what is on the hot-seat here. Is it the teacher? The children? The educational system at large? Haiku as a form? Or is it the fact that the theme is patriotism?

For anyone who didn't check, these are second graders (largely, but not exclusively seven year olds--many of them have only been reading and writing for about a year and a half). The work is being displayed on a school website. There were probably space constraints. The work is neatly presented and the form correct. Is it good? By what standard? They're seven year olds. How original can you expect them to be when you consider their ages, the subject matter, and the form they were using. What standard should we hold them to? Did the teacher mis-use the form? Yes, but it was probably an exercise in counting syllables as much as anything. She used the form as a tool. I can't see a problem with that. As for the theme . . . Well . . . I really don't want to delve into politics. I'm not sure what we're supposed to teach our children concerning the countries they grow up in and their roles their society, but I don't see any problems with teaching them to be proud of where they live. Don't Canadians, English, and Australians do this? I'll have to think about that last issue a little more to be sure I'm not missing anything.

I see that Norman posted while I was off writing my dissertation. I won't go on at any more length so as to avoid repeating anymore of his questions. I'll be curious to follow the responses.

[julianna]

Who's in the hotseat here? American culture at large, I'd say.

These kids are being good little soldiers and writing their little patriotism poems that they can't possibly begin to understand using terms they can't possibly begin to grok the implications of.

My objection would be that rather than any single one of them thinking about what America means to THEM, they're writing these little poems that clearly - to me, anyway - indicate that they already understand that there's a party line, a thing you have to say to be a good little American.

-j
recalling the shitstorm
of 20-odd years ago
when she refused
to say the Pledge
because of big issues
with the phrase
"liberty and justice for all"

[Porter Doran]

Originally posted by earthshoes
They're seven year olds. How original can you expect them to be when you consider their ages, the subject matter, and the form they were using. What standard should we hold them to?

Mary, you and Mr. Gutter seem to share a suspicion seven-year-olds wrote these "haiku." Now were there anywhere poetry fallen undirected from the infant mind, I would be foremost in my enthusiasm for it. But no -- the teacher has eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. It will be with great effort at a later age that some few of these children may hope to recover the souls with which they were born, and which such as Mrs. Moss has robbed from them.

(Or if one is Materialist -- tabula rasa and all that -- one will suppose children born with no soul -- or poetry -- but what Mrs. Moss may construct in them. Yet this does not exonerate her, but makes her a poor artisan of the collective soul and still, if differently, guilty. In short, and from any perspective, it is Mrs. Moss to blame; no one is blaming seven-year-olds.)

[Harry R]

Originally posted by earthshoes
I'm not sure what we're supposed to teach our children concerning the countries they grow up in and their roles their society, but I don't see any problems with teaching them to be proud of where they live. Don't Canadians, English, and Australians do this?

Well, I can't speak for the Aussies or Canucks, but no, the British don't do that.

Or at least, 'citizenship' was just introduced to the National Curriculum, so possibly we do now. But we didn't when I was at school; and what I find interesting is that, at the age of seven, all those good little American kids know exactly what the correct answer is.

Q. What's good about America?
A. It's the land of the free.

If you asked a group of British people, whether seven-year-olds or adults, what was good about Britain, I don't think they'd know where to start or what to say.

I don't think it's an exclusively American thing - I believe the French are much the same - but it's not a universal one, either.

Harry

[Harry R]

Similarly, continuing the theme, the idea of pledging allegiance to the flag in school seems pretty weird to us. I mean, why?

A friend of mine (who is a British and German citizen) spent some time at school in the US while her father worked there. She was made to pledge allegiance, as well. :confused:

[Porter Doran]

There are classes of ironies that -- no matter how broad -- will always be too subtle for our American minds Harry.

[Sestina]

It's my daughter's party piece whenever we go back to the UK. She's actually a bit fed up now of being asked to perform it in front of a bunch of curious (and occasionally somewhat inebriated) adult Brits. She's been pledging allegiance since the age of 4.

However, what would you have such children do? Object on the grounds that it isn't true? Children are very quick to pick up on oddities in their classmates and treat them accordingly. I'm happy for her to pledge. She knows she's British (see my earlier contribution).

What embarrasses me occasionally is that we will be at a public event (such as a School function) and the audience will be invited to pledge allegiance, and unlike my 6 year old I don't know the words!

Now what irritates me is that there is a bit in the constitution about 'no taxation without representation' and yet as an ex-pat I pay taxes in both countries and at the moment (admittedly due to laziness on my part as far as the UK is concerned) can't vote in either.

I can't even vote on my daughter's school board.

Sestina

[Harry R]

Mind you, I'm a bit neurotic about patriotism because I grew up in 1980s Britain, when the language and symbols of Britishness had been completely hijacked by the far right.

At that time, the Union Jack was primarily associated with football hooliganism and the National Front (a racist political party). The gentrification of football over the 10 years has allowed both the Union Jack and the Flag of St George to be reclaimed by the majority, and when there's an international sporting event, it's quite normal to fly them; but even now, if I see a house draped in British/English flags and there's not a big football tournament going on, I tend to assume that it's inhabited by bigots.

Which, no doubt, is the kind of thinking behind the National Curriculum's citizenship content, which is carefully inoffensive -


Knowledge, skills and understanding

Knowledge and understanding about becoming informed citizens
1) Pupils should be taught about:

1. the legal and human rights and responsibilities underpinning society and how they relate to citizens, including the role and operation of the criminal and civil justice systems
2. the origins and implications of the diverse national, regional, religious and ethnic identities in the United Kingdom and the need for mutual respect and understanding
3. the work of parliament, the government and the courts in making and shaping the law
4. the importance of playing an active part in democratic and electoral processes
5. how the economy functions, including the role of business and financial services
6. the opportunities for individuals and voluntary groups to bring about social change locally, nationally, in Europe and internationally
7. the importance of a free press, and the media's role in society, including the internet, in providing information and affecting opinion
8. the rights and responsibilities of consumers, employers and employees
9. the United Kingdom's relations in Europe, including the European Union, and relations with the Commonwealth and the United Nations
10. the wider issues and challenges of global interdependence and responsibility, including sustainable development and Local Agenda 21.

Developing skills of enquiry and communication
2) Pupils should be taught to:

1. research a topical political, spiritual, moral, social or cultural issue, problem or event by analysing information from different sources, including ICT-based sources, showing an awareness of the use and abuse of statistics
2. express, justify and defend orally and in writing a personal opinion about such issues, problems or events
3. contribute to group and exploratory class discussions, and take part in formal debates.

Developing skills of participation and responsible action
3) Pupils should be taught to:

1. use their imagination to consider other people's experiences and be able to think about, express, explain and critically evaluate views that are not their own
2. negotiate, decide and take part responsibly in school and community-based activities
3. reflect on the process of participating.

[mattj]

I'm not sure if this was originally intended to be a thread which discussed only the quality of the haiku Mrs. Moss posted on her web-site, but it appears it took a hard turn & addressed the subject as well. I 'spose since this is in fact the h2o hole that's acceptable huh?

Should blind unquestioning patriotism be instilled in school? I guess if you're the winner, you write history for the next generation to read & that's the way it goes. I grew up thinkingthe Viet Nam war was righteous & my sister & her dissenting friends were a bunch of hippy, pinko, commie fags.

If the outcome of ww2 was different would history have been written & taught differently?

matt

[Harry R]

Originally posted by mattj

If the outcome of ww2 was different would history have been written & taught differently?


There was an attempt by EU bureaucrats to write a European History textbook for use in schools all over the EU. It ran aground because they couldn't agree to a portrayal of Napoleon. The French thought he was a great military and political leader, a visionary, and a Great European. Everyone else thought he was a dangerous, vain, self-serving megalomaniac and general trouble-maker. Of course, everyone was right.

Harry

[Porter Doran]

Anna: May you truly, as a subject of the Crown, swear fealty to America? That's curious.

[Sestina]

Anna: May you truly, as a subject of the Crown, swear fealty to America? That's curious.

It's a good point.

But it's also the point that Harry was making I think, which is that Britain is a lot less - um - precious about these issues than America.

For example, should I complete the process I am currently embarking on and become an American citizen, I will have to renounce my British citizenship before an American court.

However, should I wish to maintain a British passport I may do so, because Britain has no issues with dual citizenship, even in adults. I can never cease to be a British citizen as far as Britain is concerned. I can stop acting like one, and if I am absent for long enough my tax burden will disappear, but I will always be able to apply for and get a British passport.

It's an academic question in my case, because as I said earlier, I don't know the words to the blessed pledge!

But it would be ridiculous to suggest that the British government would have any opinion whatsoever as to whether I should force my 6 year old to abstain from the daily pledge of allegiance on the grounds that she is a subject of the crown.

Anna/Sestina

[Norman_D_Gutter]

...for an answer, or at least opinions, to these questions I asked.

BTW, do 2nd graders not own the copyrights to their work? Or does one give up ones copyright when posting to the Internet? Or are bad poems not worthy of copyright? Or is it just assumed that 2nd graders will not be defending their copyrights?

Or maybe no one else is concerned about it.

Best Regards,
NDG

[mattj]

Norman, I'm probably not the best qualified to answer but heres what I think:
1)yes, but I don't think copyright has been infringed on yet.
2)I don't think so, but unless you actually have secured a copyright I think unauthorised plagurism is a risk.
3)Well I guess they are
4)I 'spose it is assumed that they probably won't.

later
matt

[Tony Hoffman]

I would delete the poems and just keep the link. (I'm not sure of the copyright intricacies, but as a rule I don't post other people's material to a discussion site--the only time I think I've done that, I think, was in the connect-the-poems thread, when most of the authors were long dead.)

--Tony

[pc]

Urizen, who is out there somewhere: it is healthy and good that America's faults be publicized. Think it through.

Originally posted by Porter Doran
(and a thought: could a proclivity for cliche have some genesis with the very names children are given?)

One cheap shot deserves another:

Retard Porno.

[Porter Doran]

Gentlemen: First, there is no copyright; second, I've linked the original site in keeping with all due interent etiquette; third -- why do I surmise that were copyright indeed claimed, it would be by the teacher or the school? surely there's no reason to cry, Save the children; fourth, if these writings were copyright, our second-graders would be in real danger of violating the copyright of one another.

[Norman_D_Gutter]

The copyright law does not require that a copyright be obtained from the government for a work to be copyrighted. The moment it gets written down, putting what was in the mind into print (be it pencil on paper, type on newsprint, or font on screens), it is copyrighted. The securing of a copyright from the government is merely added security, not a necessity. So I reject your argument "First, there is no copyright...." Keep the link; ditch the copied poems. Or, contact the teacher, the school, or each individual student and gain their permission to type in their poem on this site.

IMHO, the typing of those poems into the opening of this thread is a copyright infringement. To make fun of the inability of 2nd grade schoolchildren to write very differently from each other does not alter the fact.

To say there is no copyright does not alter the fact that the works are copyrighted automatically once they are written down, unless there is a notice to the contrary. The quality of the work, and the age of its creator, has no bearing on the fact that a copyright exists.

As one said, unless a copyright has been secured (i.e. from the government) unauthorized plagurism is a risk. Sounds like a backdoor admission that this is indeed a copyright infringement.

And, far from taking the stance of saving the children, I'm more concerned about the general concept of copyright. If we will not be faithful in honoring copyrights in a small matter, why should be expect to be faithful honoring them in a larger matter.

2, 20, and a full one,
NDG

[Porter Doran]

Oh very well -- you're technically correct; I should've said there is no copyright notice. Still if they will not post copyright notice, there is no way to know that they claim or waive copyright. But to my thinking -- to quote something, in a forum that is more or less an electronic conversation, is not likely to occur to most judges as violating copyright. If Bela or a moderator thinks otherwise, he is of course capable of altering or deleting the thread.

[Porter Doran]

Originally posted by Norman_D_Gutter
To make fun of the inability of 2nd grade schoolchildren to write very differently from each other does not alter the fact.

If these were the children's own thoughts, I'll wager they'd be much more different from each other than they are: One child would like America for strawberry jam, another for his dog, a third would not be in a mood to like America much at all for her mother having been cross that morning. Few posters but you have accused the children themselves of committing these "haiku."

[Alasdair]

What a thread! It's incorporated issues on copyright, nationality, and the brainwashing of children. And it's made fun of Bush, but that in itself is pretty unexceptional.

Returning to the issue that Harry and Sestina were chatting about, I think the attitudes of the British and Americans' to their flags are very different. In America their are pledges of allegiance to the flag and burning it would be a controversial act. In Britain, when people go on holiday they sometimes wear Union Jack shorts. I think the American flag is used as a symbol in a way the British flag is not.

I was also worried about the use of the flag by the National Front and the tie in with football hooliganism but I think that is less now. I suggest that British people are patriotic but for the most part there isn't a serious belief that Britain is the best in the world, more often some exaggerated bravado.

Al.

[Harry R]

Originally posted by Alasdair

Returning to the issue that Harry and Sestina were chatting about, I think the attitudes of the British and Americans' to their flags are very different. In America their are pledges of allegiance to the flag and burning it would be a controversial act. In Britain, when people go on holiday they sometimes wear Union Jack shorts. I think the American flag is used as a symbol in a way the British flag is not.

on that subject, this is quite amusing -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/programmes/letter_from_america/1651456.stm

[Urizen]

Originally posted by mattj

The thoughts expressed are idiotic because you don't agree with them?

The idea that cultivating a bit of national pride in seven year old Americans, during a time of rampant America-bashing, is tantamount to brainwashing, is ridiculous.

The fact that they were born American is beyond their control. They are completely innocent of every nasty thing any American has ever done, or is doing, just as any newborn child is completely innocent of any "sins" committed by his or her forbears, regardless of the revolting concept of Original Sin.
Why not encourage them to be happy about who they are, and where they live? Despite popular opinion, these kids are, in fact, lucky to be born here. It doesn't make them better, just lucky. If the country in question had been any other than America, no one would give a damn.

I recited the Pledge thousands of times in school, and I was still as red as they come when I got out of high school. Luckily, I've changed since then. I've done Christmas almost forty times in my life, and have been exposed to religion since before I can remember, but I'm still an atheist.

I don't get any sense that these kids are feeling any sort of ethnic superiority. Only one kid wrote that America was "the best". We have no idea what these kids' ethnic or religious origin is, whether they are black, white, orange, or mauve, or whether they are Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

And, as Norman pointed out, national pride doesn't equal a blind and automatic endorsement of whatever your country's government might be doing at any given time.

The truth is, these kids can't possibly grasp the political and philosophical implications of the flag or their little haikus. But what they can grasp is a sense of pride, well-being, and security, which are hugely important at their stage of development, especially at a time like now when it's politically correct to take pot-shots at America, to make Americans feel guilty and ashamed. That this sense of well-being and pride will eventually turn them into mindless flag-waving ideologues as adults is a bit of a stretch, and what's worse is the implication that this is the actual goal of the exercise.

I have a six year old son. What should I do, tell him his country is a cess-pool of selfishness and greed, that Americans are barbaric baby killers, that Moms who drive their kids to school in Ford Explorers are evil, that he's a spoiled little brat because he gets to eat three times a day and play video games and doesn't have to wipe his ass with pages out of a magazine like his Aunt Sonya down in Mexico?

Or should I take the middle road and just gloss over the whole thing, let him think that money grows on trees, that our house was a gift from God, that the food, the computers, the TVs, the car, the air-conditioning and the toilet paper are metaphysically given?

No. I'll tell him that he lives in a country where his Mom and Dad don't really have to work all that hard to have these things. I'll tell him that there were lots of countries where it would have been lucky for him to have been born, and that this is one of them. I'll tell him that there are also lots of countries where people work their fingers to the bone and still have almost nothing, and, more importantly, I'll tell him that that's not his fault. Best of all, and the main point behind these little poems, is that he is free to live the life that he chooses for himself, and that he can insult the President all he wants without fear of being shot in the head for it.

Bottom line, were any of these kids threatened with some sort of punishment for not writing a patriotic haiku? I doubt it. If that were the case, then I would be in full agreement with the majority of posters to this thread.

Bill

[Kim]

I've managed to stay out of this thread up to this point, but well . . . mug it.

While I'm not quite sure how I feel about "teaching" patriotism, and I don't agree with using haiku in the way Ms. Moss used it, I'm bothered by the tone of some contributers in this thread.

Specifically, I'm disconcerted by the eagerness with which some in this thread have assigned some kind of evil, right-wing, nationalistic motive to Ms. Moss.

Have you met her? Are you familiar with her curriculum and the level of control and choice she is permitted? Do you know her principal, superintendent, and school board, all of whom may influence or dictate what's taught in class? Do you know her community and what they want her to teach? Were you present for the lessons that preceded and followed this assignment? Or did you think this homework assignment happened in a vacuum?

And, yeah, I'm a teacher.

Kim

[Rob Mackenzie]

People have many reasons for being patriotic. In my home country of Scotland, people are nationalistic because:
a) they hate the English
b) they hated Margaret Thatcher and still haven’t got it out of their system
c) they are drunk enough to sing “Flower of Scotland”
d) they are at an international football match
e) they believe that “Braveheart” was a work of accurate history
f) Scottish people invented just about everything
g) Scottish colonists were kinder to the natives than the Portuguese
h) Scotland is a small unimportant country with a toy Parliament and a tiny GNP and the worst heart-disease rate in Europe, so they tell everyone else that it’s the greatest country in the world.

Despite the pride, misplaced or otherwise, that people have in Scotland, few people indulge in “Scotland-bashing”. It’s just not worth anyone’s time or energy.

When it comes to the USA, it’s worth asking why people hate America so much that they attack it and its people, even a bunch of schoolkids who write patriotic “haiku”.
Reason number 1 has got to be envy. People envy what the USA has got. They want it too, even if they say they don’t.
Reason number 2 is because when a small boy acts tough, we might feel sorry for him. When a big boy does the same we call him a bully. And the USA has a habit of pushing other countries around.
Reason number 3 is because fundamentalist religion is essentially about irrational hatred, even if it claims to be in the name of love. Capitalize irrational.
Reason number 4 is guilt. Many Americans hate themselves because they have been made to feel implicated in reason number 2, and feel powerless to do much about it. So they extricate themselves from their “collusion” (as they see it) by attacking their own country.

Personally I see nothing wrong in children being asked to write poetry about what’s good about their country. Better that than the cynical self-hatred that paralyses many countries today.

I think a lot of the superiority that some people express comes from a hatred of themselves. They have to compensate for their own feelings of inadequacy.

Better, in my opinion, that the kids who wrote these haiku continue to learn to love themselves and their environment. That way, they might become more open to loving others. They might even develop the self-confidence necessary to facilitate their critical faculties.

However, I think that, even at their young age, they should be taught to write decent poetry, and abstractions like “freedom” should indeed be replaced by “peanut butter and jelly sandwiches”, “Disneyland”, “baseball caps” or whatever really turns them on.

Rob

[Michael Collins]

Harry, I think England is quite similar to Australia in terms of flag-bearing. In Oz, well, in Sydney at least, flags are really only hung by hardcore sports fans (like you said, usually in sport times). Some are hung out front of houses, but usually that means they were in the military, or had some military or military family background. I've met few peoplein Australia who hang flags for patriotism. Though, I haven't seen the majority of Australia.

I've seen more Irish flags in Oz than Australian.

Mike

[mattj]

Use your best judgement about what to tell your children, I suppose that's all any parent can do.

I hate to be a prophet of gloom or doom, but I truly feel that your children are going to be the 1st generation not to have life better than their parents did. I hope I'm wrong. (If that turns out to be accurate, use your best judgement to tell them what happened there, as well.)

You may disagree with that opinion, only time will tell. You may also disagree with my opinion that instilling unquestioning nationalism in the populace @ whichever age is a good way to divert attention to what I typed in the 1st para, which I believe to be true.

I just missed out on doing the "Viet Nam experience", & because of the nationalism instilled in me @ an early age I was dissapointed that I didn't make it over there to S.E. Asia to do my patriotic duty. I had to wait a couple of years & serve in the peace time military, but in retrospect I wish that I would have learned more about what that fiasco was or wasn't about @ an earlier age.

You can disagree with these points & I still won't refer to your opinions as idiotic.
matt

Originally posted by Urizen




The idea that cultivating a bit of national pride in seven year old Americans, during a time of rampant America-bashing, is tantamount to brainwashing, is ridiculous.

The fact that they were born American is beyond their control. They are completely innocent of every nasty thing any American has ever done, or is doing, just as any newborn child is completely innocent of any "sins" committed by his or her forbears, regardless of the revolting concept of Original Sin.
Why not encourage them to be happy about who they are, and where they live? Despite popular opinion, these kids are, in fact, lucky to be born here. It doesn't make them better, just lucky. If the country in question had been any other than America, no one would give a damn.

I recited the Pledge thousands of times in school, and I was still as red as they come when I got out of high school. Luckily, I've changed since then. I've done Christmas almost forty times in my life, and have been exposed to religion since before I can remember, but I'm still an atheist.

I don't get any sense that these kids are feeling any sort of ethnic superiority. Only one kid wrote that America was "the best". We have no idea what these kids' ethnic or religious origin is, whether they are black, white, orange, or mauve, or whether they are Christian, Jew, [i]or Muslim.

And, as Norman pointed out, national pride doesn't equal a blind and automatic endorsement of whatever your country's government might be doing at any given time.

The truth is, these kids can't possibly grasp the political and philosophical implications of the flag or their little haikus. But what they can grasp is a sense of pride, well-being, and security, which are hugely important at their stage of development, especially at a time like now when it's politically correct to take pot-shots at America, to make Americans feel guilty and ashamed. That this sense of well-being and pride will eventually turn them into mindless flag-waving ideologues as adults is a bit of a stretch, and what's worse is the implication that this is the actual goal of the exercise.

I have a six year old son. What should I do, tell him his country is a cess-pool of selfishness and greed, that Americans are barbaric baby killers, that Moms who drive their kids to school in Ford Explorers are evil, that he's a spoiled little brat because he gets to eat three times a day and play video games and doesn't have to wipe his ass with pages out of a magazine like his Aunt Sonya down in Mexico?

Or should I take the middle road and just gloss over the whole thing, let him think that money grows on trees, that our house was a gift from God, that the food, the computers, the TVs, the car, the air-conditioning and the toilet paper are metaphysically given?

No. I'll tell him that he lives in a country where his Mom and Dad don't really have to work all that hard to have these things. I'll tell him that there were lots of countries where it would have been lucky for him to have been born, and that this is one of them. I'll tell him that there are also lots of countries where people work their fingers to the bone and still have almost nothing, and, more importantly, I'll tell him that that's not his fault. Best of all, and the main point behind these little poems, is that he is free to live the life that he chooses for himself, and that he can insult the President all he wants without fear of being shot in the head for it.

Bottom line, were any of these kids threatened with some sort of punishment for not writing a patriotic haiku? I doubt it. If that were the case, then I would be in full agreement with the majority of posters to this thread.

Bill

[Harry R]

For what it's worth, if anything I said was interpreted as 'assigning some kind of evil, right-wing, nationalistic motive to Ms. Moss' - that was not my intention.

On the contrary, the whole tone - patriotism laid on with a trowel - is pretty typical of the American mainstream, as far as one tell looking in from outside.

I find that interesting. Not necessarily sinister, not necessarily a bad thing, but interesting.

Harry

[antidora]

I don't think Ms. Moss is evil, right-wing or nationalistic.
I do, however, think that she has strange ideas on what constitutes haiku in particular, and poetry in general.
I am sure she is wonderful at teaching her kids to read and write neat little essays and do arithmetic. Maybe she should just keep herself and them away from poetry. I mean, she could read it to them or encourage them to read it for themselves, but for poetry-writing assignments maybe she could limit her class to "Christmas" or "my dog".
best wishes
antidora
(Officially It and Brit and, if she really wanted, probably also Swiss)

[mattj]

Well good for Mom & Dad. Seriously. But you might also explain to him that there are in fact, people in this same country that he, Mom, & Dad live in, that do work their fingers to the bone, & do it just to survive.

Btw, I did see "Night Line" one evening on which Gary Trudeau was the guest. He was relating an event he was invited to because of who his wife was. He told Koppel that he felt he was the recipient of a thinly veiled threat from jeb bush, due to his treatment of the elder bush's impotence in his "Doonesberry" cartoon. But no, you are right,he didn't get his head blown off for it.
matt


Originally posted by Urizen






No. I'll tell him that he lives in a country where his Mom and Dad don't really have to work all that hard to have these things. I'll tell him that there were lots of countries where it would have been lucky for him to have been born, and that this is one of them. I'll tell him that there are also lots of countries where people work their fingers to the bone and still have almost nothing, and, more importantly, I'll tell him that that's not his fault. Best of all, and the main point behind these little poems, is that he is free to live the life that he chooses for himself, and that he can insult the President all he wants without fear of being shot in the head for it.



Bill

[Alasdair]

Originally posted by Rob Mackenzie
People have many reasons for being patriotic. In my home country of Scotland, people are nationalistic because:
a) they hate the English
b) they hated Margaret Thatcher and still haven’t got it out of their system
c) they are drunk enough to sing “Flower of Scotland”
d) they are at an international football match
e) they believe that “Braveheart” was a work of accurate history
f) Scottish people invented just about everything
g) Scottish colonists were kinder to the natives than the Portuguese
h) Scotland is a small unimportant country with a toy Parliament and a tiny GNP and the worst heart-disease rate in Europe, so they tell everyone else that it’s the greatest country in the world.



Rob, Rob, Rob. How can you undersell our country so much? I almost dropped my whisky on my kilt. God knows how I will be able to practise the bagpipes tonight. The real reasons to be proud to be Scottish are:

1. We raise the esteem of other countries by playing sport with them - just ask the Faroe Islands or Ireland. Or Iran. Or Peru. Or Costa Rica.

2. We invented the deep fried Mars bar.

3. We lead Europe in the development of candidates of heart disease treatments

4. Movies about Scottish heroes raise the esteem of the nation - how can you fail to be proud when you look at Mel Gibson (short Australian) or Liam Neeson (tall Irishmen)?

5. We invented the deep fried Mars bar. Actually, leave something lying around long enough and we'll probably deep fry it.

Rob, I hope your belief is rekindled and you belt out both verses of Flower of Scotland with pride.

Al.

[Rob Mackenzie]

Originally posted by Alasdair



Rob, I hope your belief is rekindled and you belt out both verses of Flower of Scotland with pride.

Al.

Alasdair - thanks for making me laugh. All your additional reasons for Scottish pride are, of course, valid.

And at public performances of God Save The Queen, I always sing Flower of Scotland.

Rob

[thisglimpse]

It's too easy to whine. I'm going to praise.

I'm American
I go to school everyday
I'm glad to be free -- Taylor C.


This kid has a sweet sense of irony.

[Tony Hoffman]

Bill,

As the one who had made the crack about the "pod people", I will admit it was an ill-considered overstatement. It was in reaction to the sameness of what they were saying, rather than the theme. (I’m all for teaching Americans about the many wonderful things our country has to offer.) I think I had looked at it as an English assignment (“write a poem about being an American, but you *must* include something about freedom”), though for all I know, the assignment was more of a social studies/civics one, to write a poem about the benefits of freedom as an American, which seems a thoughtful and positive approach.

But regardless of the assignment, I'm sure I read too much into this, and my reaction was overblown (as has been much of what I’ve read on this thread, from all sides); I will cease to pick on Mrs. Moss or her class. I do have concerns about the “shadow side” of patriotism and nationalism (wherever it may occur)--how legitimate dissent can be branded unpatriotic, how politicians and others can manipulate love of country for political purposes (most often to incite wars), and when patriotism is used for national aggrandizement, presented as dogma, or drilled rather than being taught (as opposed to the old poetry adage, “show, don’t tell”)—but there are more appropriate and fruitful ways and places to express them.

--Tony

[River Not]

erps! can I put this'n here for no reason?


Blush brushes flung far.
Drizzle nips nettles, streams wane.
Steel clips along still.

[Kemmer]

Wow! I can't believe this thread's still going.

I thought this was a POETRY site.

Forget politics. I fault Mrs. Moss for daring to suggest these offerings are POEMS. And for giving her students the impression they were writing POETRY.

And, yes, as I posted earlier, I have done poetry with young children. What they wrote wouldn't stand the test in Merciless, or even The Pink Palace, but no two were alike.

"I'm American... freedom...proud. Fill in the blanks," isn't poetry.

That is what this site's about, isn't it? Poetry?

Like, if a teacher wants her students to write haiku, she should at least know something about the subject?

Teach the kids real poetry, and the political stuff will fall into place.