See what you think!

[Tonya]

I may be presumptuous in writing this post. After all...who asked me? But this has been on my mind so I'm going to throw it out here.

Gary had said awhile back something along the lines of...There has to be some way of sending the bad poetry straight to the PPOP.

It's clear to me that the mods here are top guns and take this sight very seriously. The time they spend critiquing is invaluable. I mean where else can you get professionally critiqued for free! Aside from the 3 to 1 exchange that is. However, I also see them spending a lot of time with new users directing them to the posting guidelines, the blurbs, the PPOP, explaining what clichés are, kicking them out of the critical forums, insisting they learn how to spell and proof read their work before posting in Merciless. Enough said? Maybe ALL of the critical forums should be by invitation only.

Would it make any sense to require new users to post a first time, mandatory poem in "General" titled and along the lines of...."Why I believe my work is ready for a critical forum." Maybe make them pass a posting guide lines or blurbs of wisdom quiz. Then once they are deemed worthy they would be invited to join the critical forums. The others...emailed a thanks for their submission, a few encouraging words to say good bye and perhaps a link to the PPOP or other URLS that would be helpful. I'll bet this alone would deter a good deal of the undesirable traffic on this sight.

Ultimately the mods could focus on the posts they feel are worthy of everyone's time. I imagine a lot of energy is wasted trying to get rid of the PPOP types and dealing with the negative back lashes that almost always follow.


So I'll leave it at that...and see what's to be said.

[HowardM2]

There are a number of reasons why that wouldn't be a good system, but one of the most important is quite simple: such a system would consume considerably more mod time than the present one. While we do spend an inordinant amount of time coping with those who can't or won't read or believe the various information available for newbies, the fact is that the majority of newbies do post in the appropriate forums and don't require mod intervention.

For which we are everlastingly grateful.


Howard

[micke]

I really really do not mean this rudely and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am simply curious. What is a "PPOP type" ?

[David Bowers]

Originally posted by micke
I really really do not mean this rudely and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am simply curious. What is a "PPOP type" ?

Somebody who posts in order to simply share their work in a public forum; as opposed to a 'PFFA-type' - somebody who posts in order to receive overtly critical advice, with improvement of the posted piece being the primary objective.

Regards,
Dave.

[Dunc]

Micke - That's to say, if you look up in the top righ-hand corner of this page, you'll see a pink rectangle containing a link to the Pink Palace of Poetitude aka POPP. Regards / Dunc

[Tonya]

You know best Howard! It was just a thought...
~Take care

[Scotty]

I also think that part of the problem at times is the 'immediacy factor' - just fill in the required registration fields and an e-mail will be sent advising you how to activate your account, then go ahead and post (with or without reading the guidelines and forum descriptions, as the case may be.)

In real life, one doesn't enter into an agreement without a 'cooling-off period' option and I wonder sometimes if that same principle couldn't be applied to the registration process.

For example...


Newbie fills out required fields during registration process
e-mail is sent with a link to a separate page whereby all prospective poets are required to read all forum descriptions, posting guidelines, and maybe even a careful selection of 'Blurbs'
page includes one of those 'check boxes' or something that must be ticked before a confirmation e-mail is sent back to PFFA HQ saying they've read everything
newbie is then e-mailed that their account is now active and that they can now post

This whole process takes, let's say, a day (or three)...

Anybody who is serious about improving their poetry (and knows how a workshop works) wouldn't be too put out by that, especially if there was a disclaimer at the top of the page that says something like....

Dear potential PFFA participant, we apologise for the need to conduct this process, but in order to discourage trolls (insert description here) and vanity posters (insert description here), we feel it is necessary to do so in order to lighten the workload for the owner of this site and those willing volunteers who give of their free time to moderate this board. We trust that you will bear with us and we look forward to reading and critiquing your work in the hope that we can help you improve as a poet. Thank you for choosing PFFA as a venue and we hope you enjoy your stay. (or something like that).

Maybe that would work or maybe it wouldn't.

My two bob's worth.

Scotty

[novapsyche]

Maybe newbies could be under a mandate to lurk for a full week.

During that week, they could comment on poems, but couldn't post any of their own. At the same time, they would be welcome to post at the PPoP and/or the Showcase, as per their preference(s).

Just an idea, to go along with what's been suggested before. Not that the current system isn't working well; I like the place. I'm just going with the current scenario.

[Donner]

Here's the short answer (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5172&highlight=invitation).

Here's my long answer: We prefer that PFFA be open without restrictions other than those stated in the guidelines. We prefer to allow people to post as soon as they receive their email confirmation. We prefer that people take it upon themselves to read, comprehend and follow the guidelines and forum expectations. We understand that that's the ideal and that we have members who don't/won't/can't for whatever reason. That's what the moderators are for--to take care of problems that arise from those who don't abide by what they signed up to abide by. That's life; that's what we get the big bucks for.

I can't tell you how many times the moderators have hashed through this issue and we still can't think of a better system than we currently operate under--immediate access to any member to post to any appropriate forum for his or her level of experience. And I don't care what you try to do, we'll always have trolls and we'll always have people who overestimate their abilities, human nature being what it is.

The disclaimers (http://www.everypoet.org) are already in place, the guidelines are accessible, the forums are clearly defined, the expectations are up front for anyone who pays attention. As Howard says, most do, for which the moderators are eternally thankful. Should we fiddle with something that for the most part works well and that would require far more energy to change than it's worth? I'd say no.

Donner,
as unprofessional a critic
as you could hope to meet

[Scotty]

no worries Donner,

and thanks for responding.

Scotty

[Tonya]

Just a couple more thoughts...then I'll zip it!

Good point, Scotty! I'll admit to the 'immediacy factor'! Yupe...that was me! And I got slapped around for it. I haven’t done a lot of posting here since then. I will...at some point. But God knows I spend a lot of time here reading. My life being as it is...there is no way I could learn as much as I am here. I can't express my appreciation enough without sounding like a first class ass kisser!

I started this thread because I think it is really too bad that the moderators have to spend their time sounding like a bunch of broken records. I can just imagine them bouncing their heads off their monitors, clawing at their desks and turning 10 shades of red as they are slandered by newbie ignorance.

As I told Howard, you guys know best and will run this joint as you see fit! Perhaps our suggestions and sympathies are not needed. But I don't think I'm alone when I say that these suggestions are not meant to be critical...you guys do a bang up job here and you’re appreciated!

So, yeah...that’s it for now.

[HowardM2]

Thanks. And, no, your ideas weren't taken as being critical of the way things are run. As I mentioned in the thread Donner has linked to in her post, it just may be that somebody will come up with the perfect solution one of these days; we can't know if folks don't post. Goodness knows we'd love a perfect solution. Then we can stop typing "Please read the 'Posting Guidelines' and 'New Posters' Orientation'" in our sleep.


Howard

[Donner]

Did I sound cranky? I didn't mean to sound cranky. Heh.

What Howard said. A solution (if we need one) could be just a post away. And don't think we waste that much energy banging our heads on our desks. At least I don't. Life's too short to have a cow over something posted at an internet poetry site.

[Tonya]

No...I don't here cranky, Donner. I here - matter of fact.

As long as hope remains for a practical solution and ideas are always welcome, than maybe some open ended brainstorming could turn it up!

I think, there is really something to be said for Scotty's - 'immediacy factor'. The pre-registration email is a good idea...however, a half second slide of the scroll bar can whiz them past the required reading and the agreement box is ticked without anything being read...bingo slingo..Newbie comes waltzing through the doors with their "Roses are red" poem clutched to their heart.

Perhaps...the "quiz" concept tacked on the end of the required reading would have to be completed correctly before they get their 2cond email with an entry link to follow. A short and sweet...straight to the point...true or false...multiple question...Or what have you. This would ensure they have read the guidelines and will know what to expect and what is expected of them. As well as what is NOT expected from them...I mean honestly --> It is just so wrong! (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17105)

I'm far from an expert...but I imagine there is a JavaScript out there that could easily be modified to automate this whole system. There by allowing the moderators to kick it back with a cup of tea and romp upon the new posters who lay themselves down graciously! :rolleyes:

[Scavella]

Here's the reason I like the system we have now.

The other systems — wait a while, get given access to higher critical forums, yadda yadda — in fact disrespect posters by assuming that they are going to be idiots, and therefore idiot-proof the site.

We start from the assumption that the poets who wish to post here are in fact mature, thinking individuals who can read and follow guidelines. This is a good place to grow, but the reason people grow fast here is because they have to do the work. We don't spoonfeed and we don't coddle. We slap people down when they think too much of themselves, yes, because we have put a whole lot of work into providing them with the information they need to judge themselves accurately, and we warn them what will happen if they don't.

The cost of not assuming people are idiots, though, is that you have to deal with those who are.

The value of not assuming people are idiots is that ultimately, if hurt feelings don't get in the way, the respect we give to all posters who want to come here a) by assuming they can conduct themselves in a mature fashion, b) by assuming they are capable of editing themselves, both poetically and in general chat, and c) by trusting them to do the work themselves rather than making things easy for them (and thereby anaesthetizing their brains), some people will end up respecting themselves.

And some people will end up having a reason to respect their work.

I like it this way.

S.

[Scotty]

that works for me

thanks for taking the time to respond, scavella - appreciated

Scotty