Posting Restrictions vs Critiquing Restrictions

[Debisa]

In a Poetry forum workshop environment like PFFA I appreciate the need to create several forums for the varied level of poetry posted. It separates the serious writer from what I have seen around here affectionately referred to as "newbies".

If the newbies post their work above their level of expertise, which is usually obvious by way of; lack of punctuation, incorrect grammar, and overuse of abstractions, then I do believe the moderators have every right to move those poems to a more appropriate forum. Those inconsistencies, that frustrate the more experienced critter, can be addressed in a more relaxed way and then hopefully the newbie will improve their craft. The main essence of this site.

I have also found that quite often those "newbies" read poetry just as seriously as the more experienced writer. They can and do offer suggestions over and above the level of their own craft. I am not referring to "nice poem" style of fluff but constructive advice on how a poem could be enhanced to reach just one more of the writer's targeted audience. The main goal of the writer.

My question is: Should there be restrictions on where "newbies" are permitted to offer their critiques?

Regards

Deb

PS Edited ...

[arthur_henry]

I think you are misusing the word "troll." It is rarely used affectionately, and the intent of a troll is never to improve his work but to stir up mayhem and a flamefight.

Originally posted by Debisa
In a Poetry forum workshop environment like PFFA I appreciate the need to create several forums for the varied level of poetry posted. It separates the serious writer from what I have seen around here affectionately referred to as "trolls".

If the trolls post their work above their level of expertise, which is usually obvious by way of; lack of punctuation, incorrect grammar, and overuse of abstractions, then I do believe the moderators have every right to move those poems to a more appropriate forum. Those inconsistencies, that frustrate the more experienced critter, can be addressed in a more relaxed way and then hopefully the troll will improve their craft. The main essence of this site.

I have also found that quite often those "trolls" read poetry just as seriously as the more experienced writer. They can and do offer suggestions over and above the level of their own craft. I am not referring to "nice poem" style of fluff but constructive advice on how a poem could be enhanced to reach just one more of the writer's targeted audience. The main goal of the writer.

My question is: Should there be restrictions on where "trolls" are permitted to offer their critiques?

Regards

Deb

[Debisa]

Sorry!

I have made some edits as I did use the term purely from my own subjective observations.

The question is still the same.

Deb

[HowardM2]

We frequently indicate to "newbies" who are attempting to crit out of their depth that they should restrict their commenting to the lower-level critical forums or to the "Chaos" forums (depending upon the nature of their crits and of their limitations) until they improve.

So the anwer to your question is: There already are.


Howard

[garyg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Debisa

My question is: Should there be restrictions on where "newbies" are permitted to offer their critiques?


**The answer is: there are restrictions on where newbies are permitted to offer their critiques when it has been demonstrated that a particular newbie is incapable of functioning in a critical environment. There are also restrictions placed on where any member is permitted to offer their critiques when that member has demonstrated that he/she has little understanding of the critical process and/or makes a general nuisance of him/herself by turning simple moderator's directives into long drawn out threads requiring clarification, further clarification, and deeper clarification requiring the moderators to devote more and more time and effort to someone who is obviously incapable of either reading or abiding by the Posting Guidelines or the moderators' directives. It is especially galling when a member has exhibited the sort of behavior described above to the point where several of his/her threads have ended up in the Outside forum just prior to a very public and drawn-out Flounce.

I am, of course, referring to you.

Don't post poems or comments to any of the critical forums. This is the fourth time you've been told.

[Debisa]

What determines a "newbie" attempting to crit out of their depth?

A moderator's subjective opinion?

I believe if a newbie is prepared to cut their teeth at a higher level for the purpose of improving their crit and without posting any of their own less than acceptable poems in that forum then the essence of this site as a workshop can only be enhanced.

I know those restrictions are already in place and my question was should they be?

Deb

[HowardM2]

What determines any individual's appropriateness for any given forum is based entirely on quality--quality of work and quality of critiquing. Trying hard isn't good enough for entry into particular forums; the individual has to be able to deliver. Those who post regularly in a particular forum deserve not to have to waste their time critiquing inferior work; equally, they deserve not be subjected to and have their time wasted by inferior crits.

And yes, the decision is based on the mods' subjective opinion. That's precisely why we're paid those huge salaries--to use our judgments and make subjective decisions.

[garyg]

I see you now want to have another long drawn-out thread where you require further clarification.
If you don't like the way things are run here, leave. You flounced once before, it didn't seem to take.

[HowardM2]

To clarify further, via "Five Beginners' Blunders" (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9910):

The fifth blunder is not understanding the implications of the term moderated site. pffa is not a democracy. The moderators can remove your poem, change its location, delete your critiques, tell you which forums you are allowed to post and reply in, or bar you from the site for whatever reason they see fit. Generally, these reasons are correlated with the posting guidelines. If this power in the hands of moderators strikes you as being tyranny or an unwarranted restriction on artistic freedom, you should find another site. Your entrance fee will be refunded in full.

[Debisa]

Thanks Howard

What determines any individual's appropriateness for any given forum is based entirely on quality--quality of work and quality of critiquing.

This I agree with.

And yes, the decision is based on the mods' subjective opinion. That's precisely why we're paid those huge salaries--to use our judgments and make subjective decisions.

Does the amount of salary determine whose subjective opinion is used in those decisions? Is there a voting process?

Just curious...

Deb

[HowardM2]

Anything you need to know will be passed along to you.

[garyg]

I see you now want to have another long drawn-out thread where you
require further clarification.
If you don't like the way things are run here, leave. You flounced once
before, it didn't seem to take.

[arthur_henry]

Originally posted by Debisa

Does the amount of salary determine whose subjective opinion is used in those decisions? Is there a voting process?

Deb [/B]

Bela pays the mods $50,000 US a year plus a $250 bonus for every troll/newbie they cause to flounce. Paid vacation and benefits go without saying.

[HowardM2]

And the trollskin boots. Don't forget the trollskin boots. Never underestimate the value of a good pair of trollskin boots.

[Debisa]

LOL,

Thanks Arthur_Henry. Now that makes sense!

All those flounced newbies that bounce back bring a bigger bonus!

Deb:D

[arthur_henry]

Originally posted by HowardM2
And the trollskin boots. Don't forget the trollskin boots. Never underestimate the value of a good pair of trollskin boots.

The trollskin boots are a signing bonus.

[Donner]

Originally posted by Debisa

I believe if a newbie is prepared to cut their teeth at a higher level for the purpose of improving their crit and without posting any of their own less than acceptable poems in that forum then the essence of this site as a workshop can only be enhanced.

What you believe isn't the issue here. Being a newbie isn't the issue, either. It's whether or not you can demonstrate that your critical skills are up to snuff and whether or not you can demonstrate by your behavior that you're ready. It doesn't do either the writer or the "newbie" (or long-time member for that matter) a service to allow someone who's demonstrated a lack of critical skills and/or temperment (demonstrated by outbursts and multiple flouncings) and/or who spouts ill-informed ideas about poetry to comment in forums where they're out of their depth. That level is clearly outlined in the specific forum guidelines.

But this is all really a moot point where you're concerned. You can "cut your teeth" in General or the non-critical forums.

I know those restrictions are already in place and my question was should they be?

Yes.

Donner

[Debisa]

Hi Donner


It's whether or not you can demonstrate that your critical skills are up to snuff and whether or not you can demonstrate by your behavior that you're ready. It doesn't do either the writer or the "newbie" (or long-time member for that matter) a service to allow someone who's demonstrated a lack of critical skills and/or temperment (demonstrated by outbursts and multiple flouncings)

I don't have a problem with this if the newbies be allowed to "demonstrate" their abilities. Is their a specific number of posts that could be considered to enable the newbies time to demonstrate their skills before the moderators use their subjective opinions and make decisions to flounce newbies?

But this is all really a moot point where you're concerned. You can "cut your teeth" in General or the non-critical forums.


It would seem to me that provocation leads to many of those outbursts and multiple flouncings. Where I am concerned my first post was unjustifiably flounced even to the point where other members were questioning the moderators decisions.

I will abide by the rules and stay confined to General and the non-critical forums as I believe that this site has many experienced members and so much more to offer a "newbie", even one with an attitude.


Deb

[Donner]

"I believe...."

"I don't have a problem...."

"It would seem to me...."

Do you detect a pattern here? Again--this is a moderated site. The moderators make judgment calls. It is our judgment that you are not ready to participate in the critical forums for the above reasons I stated. This thread simply reinforces my opinion that you are not ready.

Again--it's not your problem to decide these things. You had as much chance as anyone when you got here to demonstrate your abilities, newbie status notwithstanding. You overestimated your abilities. You flounced twice. Either flounce for good or get on with the job of improving your craft. And that's what comes first here--craft.

Now, as you've stated that you plan to abide by the rules, I think I'll make the judgment call to close this thread.

Donner