Troublemaker

[James Flick]

Generally, I try to stay away from threads like this, because who gives a rat’s ass what I think. After all, this isn’t my place, I don’t own it, maintain it, or fund it--and--I do enjoy it, I’ve benefited from, and am thankful for its existence.

That being said, I was wondering since the Pink Palace of Poetitude (PPoP) was put into service why some of the forums still exist here. It seems that many function similarly to the typical PPoP forum. Higher quality pieces that would fit into categories such as Love, Humor, Spiritual, might be better off posted in one of the critical forums. Likewise, some of the habitually bad writers who post here would be forced to improve or move on to places such as the PPoP. I was just thinking that much of Rigidly Compartmentalized Chaos could be eliminated without a huge loss to the overall quality of the site. In may even make it a better, more focused venue. This site is billed as the tough, critical sister site of the PPoP, though many of the forums do not fit that description. Anyhow, the thought has crossed my mind, and I was curious how others felt.

Now that I’ve probably pissed off half the people here (including the higher powers), I’ll crawl back to my hole and attempt to make something that resembles poetry.

[Kristi]

I've been noticing lately, that a lot of the regular posters in the lower forums don't do much to improve the quality of their work (meaning, continual abstractions and cliches). Instead they just keep posting drivel (sorry, but some of it is) and not posting revisions or showing that they want to improve their work.

I don't think the lower forums need to be taken out, but I think the focus on improvement could be greater. I'd like to see more people work their way up.

Good point, James, and I'm glad I'm not the one who brought it up.

[mattj]

...well as long as they don't pull the Watering Hole....

matt

[HowardM2]

Since it will take a little while to heat up the tar, to detach sufficient feathers from the chickens, and to resplinterize the rail, I'll amuse myself by attempting to answer the question.

PPoP obviously serves a useful purpose--providing a home for those who have no interest in receiving critical commentary on their work (although, interestingly, at the PPoPers' own request, a lite-crit forum has recently been added). PPoP now has almost 3,000 registered users of its own, many of them individuals who started at PFFA but weren't for whatever reason at home here. The amount of traffic in the "General" and "Chaos" forums has slowed down as a consequence, making those forums more reasonably manageable and reducing friction (and wear and tear on the mods, as well). And that's all to the good.

However, not everyone wants to post to a crit-free board, and the "Chaos" Forums still function to provide a more comfortable environment for many individuals than the critical forums would. If "Chaos" were closed, many of these individuals would simply move into the critical forums, increasing the traffic load there and requiring a great deal more policing by the mods to make sure the level of crits stayed sufficiently high. Granted, the motives of some of those who post to the "Chaos" forums are sometimes suspect--not all of them seem to be totally committed to improving their work, necessarily. However, if you check some of the "Chaos" Forums, you'll also find that there are a number of members who more commonly post to the critical forums who sometimes also post to some of the "Chaos" Forums. Why? Because these forums provide them with the opportunity to try out new ideas and different kinds of work and approaches than they normally employ without having to post such more "experimental" work directly to the critical forums first; they can try out new things in a less stringent environment first. So the "Chaos" Forums actually fill a couple of useful roles.

The mods discussed whether or not to completely close down the "Chaos" Forums when PPoP was first opened, but our feeling was that they still had a role to play. And they do.

It's true that we'd like to see more conscious effort on the part of some (not all) of the "Chaos" regulars to improve, and we periodically engage in efforts to raise the level of critting there on occasions when it seems to fall too low. But overall "Chaos" doesn't seem to constitute a problem serious enough to require any action as drastic as totally doing away with it.

And now that the tar is hot . . . .


Howard

[Nanphi]

James' point is good, but I think the Chaos forums still have a valid function, although I tend to visit only a few of them regularly. There are occasional, rare pieces that could have been run through High and even Merciless, and definitely a number on the GeneralC&C level, but the majority tend towards General and would overly crowd that forum if posted there. Compartmentalising certain genres like Depression, Teen, Spiritual, Experimental, or Erotic enables uninterested readers not to encounter poems that might not be to their taste. The specialised Song-Writers' Block is certainly useful to those thinking in terms of lyrics accompanied by music supplying or supplementing effects of rhythm et al. Some of those forums also provide a bridge for people who might wish to "move up" from PPoP and dip their toes in more critical waters.

If anything, what should be discouraged there is fluff-critting. Theoretically, the same "crit-lite" standards apply as in General, but there does seem to be more fluff in Chaos than elsewhere.

- Nanphi

[Harry R]

Originally posted by James Flick
Generally, I try to stay away from threads like this, because who gives a rat’s ass what I think. After all, this isn’t my place, I don’t own it, maintain it, or fund it--and--I do enjoy it, I’ve benefited from, and am thankful for its existence.

That being said, I was wondering since the Pink Palace of Poetitude (PPoP) was put into service why some of the forums still exist here. It seems that many function similarly to the typical PPoP forum. Higher quality pieces that would fit into categories such as Love, Humor, Spiritual, might be better off posted in one of the critical forums. Likewise, some of the habitually bad writers who post here would be forced to improve or move on to places such as the PPoP. I was just thinking that much of Rigidly Compartmentalized Chaos could be eliminated without a huge loss to the overall quality of the site. In may even make it a better, more focused venue. This site is billed as the tough, critical sister site of the PPoP, though many of the forums do not fit that description. Anyhow, the thought has crossed my mind, and I was curious how others felt.

Now that I’ve probably pissed off half the people here (including the higher powers), I’ll crawl back to my hole and attempt to make something that resembles poetry.

Umm - my instant reaction is that while the RCC forums aren't actually doing much for the benefit of the criticial forums which are the raison d'être of the site, they aren't doing much harm either. And perhaps they help divert some of the people who might have posted directly to the critical forums. From a purely selfish mod-perspective, the non-critical forums are pretty low-maintenance; if say half of the current posters there move to the critical forums, it would create more moderating than it would remove.

The fact that they take up so much more space than the critical forums on the front page is perhaps sending the wrong message. Maybe would could have a cull, starting with cutting (perhaps) Songwriters, Teen, Depression, Experimental and Erotic. And the Iraq forum, which is due to go anyway.

Or something. I wouldn't really object to scrapping all of them, though.

Harry

[Andrea345]

... and then there was the time when General was moved from the top of the list down to the RC&C area. The lesson learned - most people just click on the first forum they see & post.

They just kept coming. There was no way to stop Them.

[Rik Roots]

I was under the impression (second hand, I never visit the place myself) that Humo(u)r was quite active and dedicated to the creation of Light Verse, which is a difficult and specialised craft.

Erotic, Spiritual and Teen all have their role on the site specifically because I would not like to read god- slop- or spot-poetry on any of the Anarchy boards. Ever.

Songwriters and Prose are, again, specialised crafts which benefit from their own forum (though there are better community sites dedicated to each of these if people get serious about the crafts). Experimental is, I would argue, a similar specialised craft - though there is only a limited number of outlets on the internet for that sort of work.

Challenges is fun - why move it?

Depression is just an alternative name for the Teen forum - the two could be merged without anybody (including the regular participants) noticing.

Scansion Mansion (and Charons?) could be moved to the Poetry ICU section, if only to keep Transition Triage company.

The one good thing about maintaining the status quo is the rule that all forums are - more or less - for critical comment. This allowed a group of us to do something about the Experimental forum (which I think was originally set up to keep mad people away from the general forum), raise some standards, and have some fun out of sight from the rest of the crowd.

So, if I had a vote, I'd vote to keep the status quo. I hate it when people move the furniture around just for the sake of it.

[David Bowers]

Originally posted by mattj
...well as long as they don't pull the Watering Hole....

matt

Amen to that. Being in a creative and critical slump (okay, it's more than a slump - it's a full-on collapse), it's the only place I dare to post at the moment. If it suddenly disappeared you'd probably find me asleep on PPoP's doorstep with a 'Homeless and Hopeless' sign tied around my neck.

*shudder*

[Harry R]

Originally posted by Andrea345
... and then there was the time when General was moved from the top of the list down to the RC&C area. The lesson learned - most people just click on the first forum they see & post.

They just kept coming. There was no way to stop Them.

oh - my - God.

I'd forgotten that particular debacle. *shudder*

Of the specialised forums - I agree that Humour works quite well, and I can certainly see the rationale for an Experimental forum. The only reason I'd consider scrapping Experimental is that it gets relatively little traffic. Prose and songwriting forums are also valid concepts; but someone who actually goes into them would have to tell me if they're working at all. Do we actually have anyone here with the skills and inclination to assess songs, for example?

Of the 'themed' forums - Teen is very quiet anyway, and I think could be scrapped. It has a pretty natural overlap with Love and Depression anyway. Love has a pretty constant flow of traffic and some quite reasonable contributions.
Someone will have to tell me how much traffic Depression, Spiritual and Erotic get.

While we're moving stuff around, Poetry ICU could be moved up the board, perhaps? And I think making Scansion Mansion into an ICU forum is an interesting idea - leave people to post actual poems into the other critical forums, and just have exercises in SM.

Just throwing ideas around.

Harry

[Mikhel_MM]

I don't see what harm they're doing. Personally, I do not read through the love, teen, depression, erotic, or song writer's block. If those venues were removed, I imagine the traffic in the general areas would increase, which would be unfortunate.

It has been my experience that when people post a decent poem in love or whatnot, they'll eventually move it to the criticial forums.

It seems to me that it works out well for everyone involved.



Mikhel

[HowardM2]

As far as the quality of crits in some of the "Chaos" forums goes, it would always be possible to reinstitute a practice that was tried out with some degree of success a couple of years ago (in my own pre-mod days). Several regulars were asked (well, more or less were condemned) to crit for 3 days in one of the "Chaos" forums in order to provide clear models of critting for the less experienced who rarely venture anywhere other than the one or two "Chaos" forums where they normally post. Clive (in full hazmat gear) spent his time slogging through "Erotic," Rachel picking her way amongst languishing, sigh-riddled souls and discarded angel feathers in "Spiritual," and I in "Woe" (following which I found it necessary to reread both Tess of the D'Urbervilles and Jude the Obscure to cheer myself up); I believe one or two other regulars also participated in other "Chaos" forums, as well. Overall, the quality of crits did in fact pick up for a while.

Perhaps we should consider something of the sort again. We could of course always ask for volunteers, or simply start with the "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe" method.

Howard

[Scavella]

Howard, great minds, yaddaya.

I think James should be first, since he brought it up.

But then I think I should be next in line, as I've streamlined my critting activities to a little bit of stuff in the Schooner and a couple of run-throughs in the critical forums. I have my reasons, some of them very good, BUT.

I offer myself as a lamb (goat) for the slaughter.

If we do do this, though, we should perhaps prepare the regulars in Chaos beforehand. Otherwise we'll have to deal with Nazi hunters agian, and who wants that?

Scavella

Oh, and the sentence does have an end, right? Three days and no more, right? Right?

[KevinI]

Speaking entirely for myself here, I have posted pieces in some of the Chaos forums, one's that spring to mind are Experimental, Love and Humour. The pieces I posted in Experimental and Humour I would certainly not have placed in Gen C&C as they were new styles to me and I was uncertain how well they would be received. But then I've also used General for the same purpose. The pieces posted in Love could maybe have gone to GenC&C and may yet see the light of day there still.

I've poked about in Spiritual and Depression and though the traffic there isn't high, Harry, it's certainly higher than in High or Merciless.

My chief bug-bear with the Chaos boards is that while I find it interesting reading and sometimes a useful place to post, I crit there on the same level as the crits I offer in GenC&C but generally I don't see re-postings of pieces using the crits offered or any meaningful attempt to improve the poem and get it up to the level of posting in GenC&C or higher. This is true for the vast majority of poems I've critted there but there are exceptions, of course.

Oh, and given that I reckon I already crit at my GenC&C level in RCC, I suppose I'm prepared to volunteer too, that's if the Mods think my crits are of sufficient substance to be useful in this exercise. (Although having just said that I'll be gone from these boards for a week from Friday 17 October as I attempt to take on one of SA's last unclimbed peaks. Can hardly contain the excitement!)

[Kristi]

I'd love to see a('nother apparently) resurgence in the lower forums. I've wanted to post more pieces there, but the crits I have received, well, they weren't much help, and my stronger-handed bits of advice aren't usually expected (so it seems).

Kristi
*anticipating grrreat things!

[Searcher]

Quote:

The pieces I posted in Experimental and Humour I would certainly not have placed in Gen C&C as they were new styles to me and I was uncertain how well they would be received. But then I've also used General for the same purpose. The pieces posted in Love could maybe have gone to GenC&C and may yet see the light of day there still.

Hi wixx: I can identify with what you are saying as I also post occasionally to the chaos forums to try out different approaches. Especially when the creative juices aren’t flowing.

My chief bug-bear with the Chaos boards is that while I find it interesting reading and sometimes a useful place to post, I crit there on the same level as the crits I offer in GenC&C but generally I don't see re-postings of pieces using the crits offered or any meaningful attempt to improve the poem and get it up to the level of posting in GenC&C or higher. This is true for the vast majority of poems I've critted there but there are exceptions, of course.

With the exception of humor I seldom post revisions work posted in Chaos. Rather I take the crits I receive and apply them to work of the same nature (as the experiment) that I post in the critical forums. I find chaos very helpful when used in this manner, but after reading this thread I think that I have been taking advantage of the low expectations placed on these forums, when I should have been more conscious of the overall perception this behavior gives of the Chaos forums.

For this I apologize to all.

Gene

[James Flick]

OK, I’m back for more, and to clarify my thoughts and reasons.

What prompted the original post is the fact that the upper level forums are mostly dead, and a feeling that the site is diluted by allowing fluff areas to exist. I too, have posted in many of the Chaos forums to try out new things, or to see if any of the sequences in (what I consider) to be a flawed piece are working. Critting in these same forums is problematic, one ends up ripping into every other post for clichés, grammar, spelling, etc. I think some of Chaos is worthy: Challenges, Prose, and Experimental come to mind. A look around other quality sites shows that many allow these existing categories into the general mix--if they’re bad they get critted as such, and their authors improve or leave.

A few theories/conclusions that I can’t prove to be true, but suspect are:

The thought that all these people will flood the Anarchy forums and wreak havoc seems false. At first this may be true, and there would be angry posters and frazzled Mods, but writers would be forced to improve or move on. I suspect most would move to other less critical venues.

Any of the regulars who post to the Chaos forums to try out new things, could easily do this in General instead. They would receive better feedback by an overall better quality of writer, and would benefit more by doing so. I suspect many of the upper tier of writers post to the side forums (Chaos) instead of say, General (lower forums), because they are perceived as a lateral move, instead of going down the ladder, as it were. In other words, it’s more of an ego thing than a practical thing.

Fluff areas drag down the site as a whole. That sub-standard writers can thrive here is bad for the overall gestalt of the site. If these areas were eliminated perhaps a higher level of writers would join or return. I’m, of course, not speaking of beginning writers who are attempting to improve. I think if you asked around, the learning forums and resources such as Blurbs, are currently the strength of this sight. The higher level forums have mostly died off.

Tougher critting in the Chaos forums is an option, but one that would be never ending for whoever attempted it. This is a lot of ground to cover. My impression is once the writers who have no desire to improve were weeded out, many of these forums would have little traffic, and therefore better absorbed into the Anarchy forums. This has been tried before, what did it achieve in the long run?

Just so I’m clear, I never meant to suggest dumping anything like the Watering Hole, it serves a valid function for the site, and has nothing to do with the quality of the writing. What I had in mind was:

Anarchy: General, General C&C, High, and Merciless
Chaos: Experimental, Challenges, and Prose.
ICU: Scansion, Charon’s, Transition, and Malpractice.
Not really poetry: remain the same, although Blurbs could possibly be moved to ICU
Odds n Ends: remain the same

So, in answer to Rik, I wasn’t suggesting "moving furniture around just for the sake of it."

Maybe a better question for discussion is: Why have the higher level forums declined, and is it, or should it be a goal to build these forums back up? Why doesn’t this forum attract higher level writers, and what has driven some away who used to post here? Would ridding the site of fluff forums help this in any way? Something is not right on the high end, I think that’s obvious.

[Melanie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Flick



Any of the regulars who post to the Chaos forums to try out new things, could easily do this in General instead.

*If I had a vote, I'd dump General.
This is workshop, there are two General C&C rooms, if no one can handle the light critique in there they really should be posting at the Palace.
If they're here for the reason intended, they should never want anything less than one of those rooms.

[Harry R]

Originally posted by Melanie
[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Flick
*If I had a vote, I'd dump General.
This is workshop, there are two General C&C rooms, if no one can handle the light critique in there they really should be posting at the Palace.
If they're here for the reason intended, they should never want anything less than one of those rooms.

I appreciate the argument, and we did actually half-try that.

For a while, after PPoP started, we bumped General down to the non-crit forums. The result was that GenC&C was absolutely swamped by crap, most of it posted by first-time posters. We ended up moving General back up, because the mods just spent all their time trying to maintain standards in GenC&C.

I could be persuaded to ditch RCC before ditching General. The trouble is the stream of new members - as an example, we've had 39 people join the site in the past week, and 54 the week before that. Even in only half of them post a poem, that a lot of verbiage.

Harry

[Harry R]

I do agree, though, that paring down the non-critical forums severely (and possibly completely) would at least change the superficial balance of the site. The casual visitor would get a different impression of the place, and it might help - who knows?

Harry

[David Mascellani]

*** A part of the Merciless guideline states:

"This forum is for work that's polished, revised, and, if the writer chooses to do so, could be accepted into reputable poetry publications or competitions with a bit more tweaking."

Perhaps, the higher level writers who have left the PFFA have done so because they are now producing work that is of a publishable quality. I mean, really, I'm not allowed to post at
the higher forums, and I feel that it will a very long while until I reach the level of some thebetter merciless poets. But I have to say, there are poets who post in Merciless who make me think,what on earth are you still doing here? Why don't you leave and concentrate on sending your stuff to those "reputable poetry publications or competitions" where your weeks and months of hard work will be rewarded with money and/or prestige?

I don't think that ridding the forum of fluff forums will fix up the fact that Merciless is slow moving. Even the most 'prolific' of posters in that forum tend to post a poem once every month or so. It is a slow moving forum because of the high standards that it sets and demands.



David
There should be a PFFA literary journal.

[Melanie]

What I really think is

we need some auxiliary mods.
Just put a flashing red light next to the names of moderators,
and flashing blue next to the names of auxiliaries.

No, that's not really what I think,
but thought it was worth a smile.

[David Mascellani]

Originally posted by Melanie
What I really think is

we need some auxiliary mods.
Just put a flashing red light next to the names of moderators,
and flashing blue next to the names of auxiliaries.

No, that's not really what I think,
but thought it was worth a smile.

It made me smile. Perhaps we could have
apprentice auxilary mods as well.
and undercover mods who would only come out when
the PFFA signal shines out in the night sky.

[HowardM2]

"There should be a PFFA literary journal."

To quote King Lear, "Never, never, never, never, never."

The proliferation of e-journals has done enormous damage to the whole notion that "publication" establishes any kind of credibility for a writer. The extension of Pushcart Prizes to include e-zines has done enormous damage to the credibility of the Pushcarts themselves as a means of recognizing excellence in writing.

Aside from all that, I've had a little experience with that sort of thing, just enough to know that it's a nightmare no one in his/her/its right mind wants to deal with. Ever.

The point's been made before: PFFA is about writing the best poetry one can; it isn't about publication.


Howard

[earthshoes]

Originally posted by David Mascellani
It made me smile. Perhaps we could have
apprentice auxilary mods as well.
and undercover mods who would only come out when
the PFFA signal shines out in the night sky.

Ooh! Ooh! Can I be one? I always wanted one of the James Bond pens that explodes! And one of those flashy thingies! You know the ones that make people forget they were ever at the pffa in the first place?
Plus, I'm reeel good at being sneaky and I've been practicing my lurking skills. 'Bet you didn't even know I was here before now . . .

mary
mod-in black

[Melanie]

Originally posted by David Mascellani

It made me smile.

*Yay.

Perhaps we could have
apprentice auxilary mods as well.
and undercover mods who would only come out when
the PFFA signal shines out in the night sky.

*And spy mods; flies on the walls.

************************
[SIZE=4]BZZZZZZZ[/SIZE]
Sincerely,
Flymod
MWA-HA-HA-HA

******

Now that's scary. Let's see if I can do it without an "edited by".
No, can't, but I think it's the kind of newfangledness that makes incognito an obsolete word.

*[SIZE=1]help me. help me.[/SIZE]*

[mattj]

I can't honestly speak for the songwriting forum, but I have gone to the prose forum quite often. As much as I hate to say it (because it's really the only forum in the pffa I ever endeavor to try to be creative in) you could probably shit-can it. Take a look @ the 1st page, its filled with examples of users who don't crit, or who SOMETIMES crit 1 for 1, users who don't acknowlege the critiques they recieve, & a large % of the critiques offered are simply fluff.

That said, there are some users who when they post critique with sincerity & with reciprocity, (& I have recently benefeited from a great work-shopping session) but without doing a count it strikes me as the exception.

matt

Originally posted by Harry R
Prose and songwriting forums are also valid concepts; but someone who actually goes into them would have to tell me if they're working at all. Do we actually have anyone here with the skills and inclination to assess songs, for example?




Harry

[Scavella]

The more I read this thread, the more I think maybe you have a point, James. It might be a good idea to cull some of Chaos, as well as encouraging critters to drop in regularly to make sure that a critting standard is established.

That said, I wonder how much of the slow traffic in the upper level forums is the result of the tightening of standards there? It's true that many of the old-timers have become regulars on other, less diverse boards (I mean less diverse in terms of experience of poets), possibly because of the limited number of in-depth crits available on PFFA. The internet community of serious poets is not huge (as opposed to that of poetasters, which is elastic), and many with experience tend to congregate where they can be sure of like minds.

That said, I seem to remember Rachel (the Broad) doing an experiment on the other boards to see what kind of crits she got, and she found that the likelihood of getting fluff even in the more rarified atmosphere of other boards was higher than in High or Merciless.

Maybe it's just laziness or preoccupation. It takes time to give good crit, and it takes plenty of time to give a comprehensive crit on a good poem. That's why I'm scarce in the upper critical forums these days. Not a good excuse, but mine own.

Cheers

[Kaem]

There was a period of time for several months when I purposely critted all poems that fell down the page uncritted in the Depression forum. I tried to give real crits, and I usually had a hard time finding much that was good to say about the poems. I almost never got a response to any of the crits I gave, and the people rarely ever critted other poems. It mainly seemed to be fly-bys posting in that forum. I eventually gave up because it did nothing to raise the bar in that forum as far as other people critting and improving their writing.

I don't see any reason to keep Depression. Newbies can post to General or PPOP if they have to post their depressing poems, but I see no need to have a forum to advertise that we specifically want that stuff posted at PFFA. The forum is essentially useless: I don't believe anyone will ever use that forum to work their way up to C&C, and the odd times that regulars go post decent poems in there, those are poems that probably could have been posted to a critical forum anyway.

[arthur_henry]

I think Teen, Depression, and Erotic can go. Those who post there can relocate to General, which is what that forum consists of mostly anyway (the people who post to those forums are generally transients anyway). Will it bring back the more experienced posters? Probably not. But it certainly can't hurt. At a superficial glance at the forums, an experienced poet might be turned off simply by the names of those fora.

Just my one cent (the other one rolled under the couch),
Art

[Sestina]

I'd be sad to see 'Erotic' go. I've posted several poems there myself, poems I would be less comfortable posting in General C&C for various reasons.

I also think, some people who really don't want to read erotica in any circumstance, might be offended if they stumbled on one of these in a General forum.

Just my 2c. Do what you will with Teen and Depression!

Sestina

[HowardM2]

How's this for an idea:

1. Combine "Erotic" and "Love" into a single forum called "Eros."

2. Combine "Woe" and "Teen" into a single forum called "Angst" or maybe "Teen Angst."

[Rachel Lindley]

Combine Erotic and Challenges to form Sex Games.

Combine Experimental with Spiritual to form Cults R Us.

Combine Woe with Humor to form Lithium Den.

Rachel
the possibilities are endless

[Alasdair]

[two British pence]

I have hung out at the love forum for a while when I posted a piece there and there was times I got depressed by the:

- few crits made, some poems dropped off with less than 3
- poor quality of them, many were 2-3 lines
- lack of notice paid by people receiving crits

If I had gone to some of the RCC forums when I first joined I might have not stayed at Pffa, thinking that I would not get useful critiques. Of course, sadly for you suckers I went to general C&C and thought "Great!" instead :)

Like Wixx I have been posting in depth crits to some pieces in love but sometimes I almost wonder why I do it, since the recipient doesn't seem to want critique or want to change what they do as a consequence of it.

I think Howard's suggestions are good. Although I'd like us to try Rachel's for a week if she posts the first pieces to each new forum :)

Alasdair
Who doesn't normally bitch this much

[/two British pence]

[Kristi]

the possibilities are endlessSince poetry is just an expression of momentary emotion, how about...

Happy
Sad
Other

ha.

Then of course you'd have to add your

Heaven
Hell
Purgatory

ick.

[Jordana]

Originally posted by James Flick
I was just thinking that much of Rigidly Compartmentalized Chaos could be eliminated without a huge loss to the overall quality of the site. In may even make it a better, more focused venue. This site is billed as the tough, critical sister site of the PPoP, though many of the forums do not fit that description. Anyhow, the thought has crossed my mind, and I was curious how others felt.

Well, James, if you're curious...

I joined recently, so maybe I have a perspective that can be of help. Initially I was struck by the fact that this site seemed to take the process of writing poetry very seriously. I lurked a good while and realized that no post was to be taken lightly, not critiques nor posts to General. High and Merciless were to be taken even less lightly.

On the other hand, I found it incongruous to have Depression and Teen in the same place, especially after wading through the muck there, and especially after learning about PPOP. Why allow this standard of writing and critique there at all after creating the PPOP? (I'm speaking in general terms...I have seen a few thoughtful critiques in these forums, although no thoughtful poems. They may exist, but I personally haven't seen any.) Why allow a forum for teen angst, or one for cliche-riddled "love" tripe?

It seemed to me upon joining that there were two standards here: one stringent, unapologetic, and dedicated to the love of writing and words, as well as another, seemingly for those who couldn't quite comply with the first. It puzzled me then, and still does. Shouldn't there be one standard here in terms of commitment to improvement and critique (with varying degrees of intensity according to skill level), rather than two?

With that said, however, I'm also with James: I've benefitted deeply from this site and am aware my opinions matter very little in the grand scheme of PFFA. I'm grateful it exists and I can be a part of it, teen angst and all.

[novapsyche]

Originally posted by Jordana
Initially I was struck by the fact that this site seemed to take the process of writing poetry very seriously.

On the other hand, I found it incongruous to have Depression and Teen in the same place, especially after wading through the muck there, and especially after learning about PPOP. Why allow this standard of writing and critique there at all after creating the PPOP?

So what you're saying is that the place seems a bit Jekyll and Hyde-ish.

[HowardM2]

I'm not quite sure why the basic concept seems to be so elusively difficult, unless it's because the situation isn't simply an "either/or" one:

PPoP--For those who just want to "share" and not receive critical comments;

Chaos--For those who want comparatively light crits without facing the full panoply of thorough criticism of the regular crit forms;

The Crit Forums--For those who are ready to devote themselves to working very hard to improve their craft and are willing to have both barrels discharged at their work.

Three--not two-- different types of forums intended for three differently-motivated types of posters.

A triumvirate or trinity of forums, if you will.

[Harry R]

Originally posted by HowardM2
A triumvirate or trinity of forums, if you will.

I appreciate the theory, but are they actually working? And are the Chaos forums being used for their intended prpose enough to justify their existence?

At the least, I think that cutting back the forums is a good idea - f'rinstance, 'Teen' only serves a purpose if it's responding to demand from teenage posters. If the demand isn't there (and I don't think it is), the forum could be closed tomorrow.

And I'd be willing to consider the experiment of closing all but Prose, Experimental and Challenges (because they serve clearly defined functions). It might not make much real difference to the critical forums, but I don't think the site would be losing much really, either.

Harry

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree with Harry. I think the PPoP can easily take the place of the deleted forums without much loss, and I think the lack of clutter on PFFA would be of potential benefit and help to hone its focus on the critical aspect of workshopping instead of the whole "sharing my emotions". After all, I thought light critique was what was offered in General and the two General C&Cs. If people want light critique, they can post their work there.

Rachel

[HowardM2]

I have no problem with reducing the number of "Chaos" forums but am very reluctant to cut it so drastically; I think we need several forums such as "Spiritual," "Love/Erotic," and "Teen/Woe."

Why? Simple. The board name is "Poetry Free-For-All." Although I don't know that this has ever been brought up, but that name creates a bit of a problem because it means that PFFA is one of the very first listings which turns up when someone does a net search for "poetry." That is precisely why PFFA has some 12 to 15 times more new registrants than does any other board on the internet with which I'm familiar. That, in turn, helps to explain why we have so many newbies both to writing and to the internet who post here. As we know, many of these individuals rush to post almost immediately on finding the board and getting registered. But at least now many of those at least post to the "Chaos" forums rather than the crit forums. If the "Chaos" forums are no longer available to provide an escape valve, much of that work will go directly into the crit forums, seriously increasing the traffic load there as well as lowering the overall quality of both work and crits there by virtue of the sheer number of such postings.

If the desire is to raise the overall quality of PFFA postings, perhaps eliminating the "Chaos" forums needs to go hand-in-hand with a name change so that the board no longer pops up at the top of net searches.

Just an idle rumination.

[James Flick]

Originally posted by HowardM2
If the "Chaos" forums are no longer available to provide an escape valve, much of that work will go directly into the crit forums, seriously increasing the traffic load there as well as lowering the overall quality of both work and crits there by virtue of the sheer number of such postings.


This may be true, but, wasn't the point raised earlier…

... and then there was the time when General was moved from the top of the list down to the RC&C area. The lesson learned - most people just click on the first forum they see & post.

They just kept coming. There was no way to stop Them.
Therefore, wouldn’t the amount of newbies posting to the critical forums upon discovering PFFA be the same as it is now. And wouldn’t the escape valve be the PPoP or another less critical site?

[Rik Roots]

Originally posted by Harry R
<snip>

And I'd be willing to consider the experiment of closing all but Prose, Experimental and Challenges (because they serve clearly defined functions). It might not make much real difference to the critical forums, but I don't think the site would be losing much really, either.

Harry

I think experimental could go, too - we've got the blurb in the Blurbs in case someone comes along and posts their ever-so-original "full stop" poem. There doesn't seem to be many serious experimentalists using the forum nowadays, anyhows.

Are there many websites out there dedicated to the serious production of light verse? If no, then I'd suggest keeping Humo(u)r.

Ignite blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance ...

[HowardM2]

If the "Chaos" forums are no longer available to provide an escape valve, much of that work will go directly into the crit forums, seriously increasing the traffic load there as well as lowering the overall quality of both work and crits there by virtue of the sheer number of such postings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may be true, but, wasn't the point raised earlier…

No, it isn't; however, the problems are interrelated. One has to look not just at a single desired consequence but at what the overall consequences to the board are likely to be.



wouldn’t the amount of newbies posting to the critical forums upon discovering PFFA be the same as it is now. And wouldn’t the escape valve be the PPoP or another less critical site?

No, the number of newbies posting directly to the critical forums would be almost twice what it is now. To my mind, that's a serious problem because, rather than raising the quality of the critical forums, the overall result is much more likely to be a general lowering of quality. I've seen the poetic equivalent of Gresham's Law--"Bad money drives out good"--do severe harm to more than one poetry board in the past and am extremely reluctant to create a situation in which that scenario is likely to run its course again.

[James Flick]

Originally posted by HowardM2
I've seen the poetic equivalent of Gresham's Law--"Bad money drives out good"--do severe harm to more than one poetry board in the past...

Howard you may well be correct. What prompted this thread was the fear that the above had already taken place on this board. My thought was that the Chaos forums were, in fact, the "bad money".

I'm wrong more than right, so who knows--it seems we both fear the same thing--only I think it might have already happened, and you think the status quo will prevent it from happening.

[Alasdair]

If we want to keep some of the Chaos forums to prevent the critical ones being overwhelmed with expressions of angst/love/whatever then can we do something to improve them?

Howard, your trinity concept is fine but is it reality? Are people posting to the Chaos forums getting light critiques or sometimes none at all? I interpret the core concept of PFFA as wanting to provide an environment for people who want to improve their poetry, as opposed to PPoP which exists for those who wish to share without improving. Do the Chaos forums help people improve their poetry?

At the beginning of the thread it was mentioned that previously a few more serious critters worked at raising the level of some of the Chaos forums. Could we try that again?

Let's keep some Chaos forums but trim the numbers and make them better.

Alasdair
Just my two pence ramble of the day.

[Nanphi]

Well, I've just been in Love.... (heh!)
There are several decent poems on the first page (by PFFA regulars), but the general quality of the shards in the abyss is soul-shattering. Don't know whether my attempts to crit some of this stuff will result in a rush of eager readers to Blurbs or not; the abstractions thread will zing red-hot. The idea of now venturing, say, into Teen is not to be contemplated.

I couldn't tell, though, if Howard's idea of combining Love and Erotic would work. I didn't notice any actual erotica in Love (or much love in Erotica, for that matter), and I believe Sestina has a point about people who might be offended by inadvertantly coming across the sloppy kind of erotica that's too often posted; confining erotica to its own forum is perhaps sanitary. It's one of the forums I occasionally visit, but I've rarely found poems there that actually strike me as erotic.

But Love could probably be suppressed outright (its poems would go into General or the critical forums), and Teen could doubtless merge with Woe. I'd tend to keep Humour, Songwriters, and Prose as specialized forums and consider moving Experimental, along with Scansion Mansion and Challenges, into the same group as Transition Triage. Woe would have to stay in the reduced Chaos group just in hopes of siphoning the anguish&suicide stuff out of the critical forums. So would Spiritual, for similar reasons.

These are largely cosmetic changes. They would make Chaos look smaller in comparison to the more serious ICU forum group, which could perhaps be moved up the page to follow the Anarchy forums. Just a few thoughts.

-Nanphi
still amazed at how big PFFA is

[arthur_henry]

I have a sort of odd affection for the love forum. But then, perhaps that's just me.

Just an idea. We might keep the forums that a regular would conceivably post to, and cut the ones solely kept to jostle the newbie hordes out of the critical fora; the poems that would normally go there could be posted to General. That would mean cutting Depression & Teen, but keeping Love and Erotica (although I don't mind the idea of combining the two into Eros as Howard suggested). Looking in Teen, I noticed the last post on the first page is from a month and a half ago, which means that that forum moves really slow compared to C&C, where the majority of the posts are off the front page within a week.

Either way, I'm happy with the way things are. It would be nice to see a bit more movement in the higher forums though.

[Steph#2]

Just a quick note:

The way PFFA is organised is rather a success story, if the frequent problems other online poetry sites have is anything to go by. As they so frequently say: if it ain't broke, don’t fix it! Having said that... a tweak here and there may tune things up a bit, especially if it encourages the better writers to post here. Now and then there are folks whose first couple of posts are really good, they receive encouraging comments, and yet decide not to continue to post. It would be useful to get a line on why this happens and if there’s anything that can be done to prevent it.

Steph#2