Poems at the Poetry Free-for-all - How can I best help newbie posters?

mindsweeper

01-01-2004, 02:28 PM

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to sympathetically crit the surfeit of newbie work that has recently appeared and which lacks basic grammar, punctuation and correct spelling, let alone poetic device? I have no pretensions about my own work but I do, at least, try to get the basics right. I'm finding it difficult to find three pieces to crit in return for a single post as I hate constantly to sound negative. I don't wish to sound churlish but I really am finding it difficult to offer helpful crits to those whose grasp of the language is apparently so poor. I find myself repeating the litany: Check out Blurbs, use a spell-checker, start again - or words to that effect, or that's what I want to say but have given up posting because it sounds so repetitive. One would like to offer encouragement but it is not always easy to do so within a barrage of seemingly randomly assembled words. Oh, dear, perhaps I'm just being an ancient old biddy, ranting on about English useage, but I would appreciate any advice.

Hopefully, Ruth.

Rik Roots

01-01-2004, 06:22 PM

If you can find just one image which interests you, concentrate on that image and try to explain the reasons why you found it interesting. Then suggest that if the rest of the poem could be made as interesting as that image, then the author would have something to seriously workshop.

Just a suggestion.

BrianIsSmilingAtYou

01-02-2004, 03:37 AM

Rik's suggestion concerning imagery is good.

There are a number of things to look for:

imagery (as Rik suggested) - talk about "showing" versus "telling".

Talk about ways to use imagery to "paint a picture", how to use imagery in metaphor and simile.

theme - is the approach to the theme effective? Is a theme discernable? Perhaps a suggestion to narrow, focus or identify a theme would help.

Explain what you think the theme is and how you think that the poem attempts to convey this. Tell them you hope this is what they meant--otherwise there may be a problem.

Suggest ways to more effectively convey the theme

sonics - are there interesting sonics that are notable (or otherwise) -- alliteration, assonance, rhyme

Newbies have a tendency over-alliterate, use forced rhyme etc.

voice - is the voice consistent and identifiable? Does the voice makes sense in the context of the theme and the language? Does the narrator intrude? Is it I, I, I?

meter - is there a sense of meter? Does it start out metrical and then peter out?

Attempt to analyse the meter. (This may be a benefit to the critter as well as the one being critted.)

Suggest alternatives if the meter fails at various points.

Is it syllabic? Accentual?

Abstractions - identify abstractions. Give examples of how to express an abstract concept using imagery.

Attempt to relate the theme and voice to the abstractions, and suggest alternatives.

cliches - identify cliches. Explain why they kill poems. Give examples of alternatives.

linebreaks - are the lines all end-stopped?

Is enjambment used well/poorly?

Is the piece prose with line-breaks?

form - is the piece an attempt at an identifiable form?

Explore how it meets or does not meet the requirements of the form.

Alternatively, explore other features of the poem (theme, image, meter, rhyme etc) and see whether the attempt to fit the poem to a form works well, or whether the attempt has done violence to the form

language - is the language archaic, slang, jargon, flat?

Are active verbs used? Is the piece over-modified or spare?

Are nouns and verbs vivid and specific? (Oak instead of tree etc)

Are common errors present: your vs. you're, its vs. it's, spelling, punctuation etc

unity - do the various elements of the poem work together effectively?

A science fiction poem with archaic diction in the form of a sonnet might not work--or it might be a brilliant satire on form and content.

Let them know if it worked or not.

etc

Other things that I do is to judge the poster by their existing posts. Do a search on the user name.

Did the user introduce him or herself in the Newbie forum? Did they indicate that they understand the rules/lurked? Have they done any crits of their own already? Do the quality of their crits indicate that they will respond effectively to what you have to say?

Preface the crit with a disclaimer if you wish. I do at times if it is a newbie and I feel that I may say something that could be taken the wrong way.

Direct your criticism at the piece rather than the writer by your use of language in the crit.

Instead of

"You don't know how to rhyme, and your sentence structure is convoluted."

say

"The piece uses forced rhyme. Notice how the syntax of S1L4 is inverted to accomplish this goal. "

There is much more I could say on this matter.

One of my earliest crits upset a user and they went through a similar baptism by fire in Outside as we have seen recently with another user.

The user that I upset went on to recognize the validity of the crit and the necessity of the way that the forum rules are structured. As long as you are honest and avoid a fluff crit, you should be OK.

Good luck.

BrianIs:)AtYou

Scavella

01-02-2004, 12:15 PM

Welcome, my dear, to the world of the mod.

Smile, grit your teeth, and take an aspirin.

Pay attention to what Rik and BrianISAY said; imitate the responses of HarryR or Kemmer (both great critters and very nice to newbies); or pray.

Sometimes there is nothing sympathetic to say; sometimes the poets have not been terribly sympathetic to their readers, and the nicest thing one can do is tell them, bluntly.

Cheers.

And good luck.

JohnBoddie

01-02-2004, 01:21 PM

Re:

"....work that has recently appeared and which lacks basic grammar, punctuation and correct spelling... "

If you come across work with these features, tell the author to consider learning the basics of the English language before posting again. Work with these characteristics is an insult to the reader.

If you make the effort to "work past" these deficiencies, then you may as well acknowledge that you are being completely hypocritical every time you say that you crit the poem and not the author.

JB

Debisa

01-03-2004, 01:46 AM

But this is a workshop.

The reader has no right to be insulted. He/she is not paid for their time however they are paying for the priviledge to post their own work. If you feel that the newbies are beneath your own expertise then stick to the higher critical forums. Let the newbies teach each other.

Everyone is here to participate in a workshop and learn how to write better poetry so that those grammar, spelling and punctuation deficiencies can be improved upon. The reader is also a writer and the way I would like to receive advice is much the same way I would give it. I have been reading through the High and Merciless forums and to me it is blatantly obvious that it takes a lot of sucking up to the regulars around here to be considered on the same level as them.

When learning to make a chair in a workshop with experienced carpenters the apprentice is not told to go away, and not come back, until he can hammer a nail as perfectly as the craftsman. He learns by hammering his own nails, watching the experience around him and accepting the lessons learned from his peers.

Sometimes those peers can be newbies too.

Deb

Rachel Lindley

01-03-2004, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by Debisa
The reader has no right to be insulted. He/she is not paid for their time however they are paying for the priviledge to post their own work. If you feel that the newbies are beneath your own expertise then stick to the higher critical forums. Let the newbies teach each other.

The blind leading the blind. And this helps improve a person's poetry how, exactly? Having people at a higher level of skill provide honest critique should be welcomed, not frowned at.

I have been reading through the High and Merciless forums and to me it is blatantly obvious that it takes a lot of sucking up to the regulars around here to be considered on the same level as them.

Then you've not read very carefully. If you had, you would notice that when a newcomer arrives who posts work at a high level of skill in the higher forums, it is welcomed and encouraged. It doesn't happen on an extremely regular basis, but it happens. The reason it doesn't happen on a regular basis is because most newcomers to any online poetry forum can't write poetry worth shit. However, when they can, they have absolutely no problem being considered on the same level as regulars. For example, when I first came to PFFA, I posted a poem in High. It was given some good comments, but much of it was trashed, for good reason. The next poem I wrote, I posted to Merciless. It stayed. It recieved some nasty comments, for good reason, so I revised, and posted again to Merciless. This time it was not trashed. My next poem after that was "Lessons in Wood's Craft", and it was welcomed to Merciless. In 3 poems, I was accepted to Merciless with little difficulty.

When learning to make a chair in a workshop with experienced carpenters the apprentice is not told to go away, and not come back, until he can hammer a nail as perfectly as the craftsman. He learns by hammering his own nails, watching the experience around him and accepting the lessons learned from his peers.

Bullshit. Any apprentice will tell you so. Yes, they can learn some things from their peers. But they're an apprentice to a master craftsman for a reason.

Sometimes those peers can be newbies too.

Sometimes, yes. However, if you relied soly on the words of those other newcomers who say what you want to hear the way you want to hear it, without seeking advice from those at higher levels of skill, be it by getting direct criticism from them or reading things written on the topic, you'll likely not improve much at all.

Of course, Debisa, none of this will appear to have any impact on you, your regular complaints on this topic, or your writing, as has become blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention for five minutes.

Rachel

Debisa

01-03-2004, 03:19 AM

Once again it comes down to a personal attack? Why are my views considered complaints? I have not been complaining. I don't post in the higher forums and I never have. The critique I am receiving in General is wonderful and certainly helping me to improve my writing. I was offering my suggestion to Mindsweeper on how to best help newbies, myself included.

The blind leading the blind. And this helps improve a person's poetry how, exactly? Having people at a higher level of skill provide honest critique should be welcomed, not frowned at.

I was not frowning at honest critique. All newbies are at different levels and it has been said on many occasions some of the regulars who do post to the higher forums also frequently provide their honest critique in the lower forums. All I was saying is that if you are going to be insulted by the lack of experience in the lower forums to the point where it is necessary to honestly critique the writer and not the poem on the screen then just don't go there.

Then you've not read very carefully. If you had, you would notice that when a newcomer arrives who posts work at a high level of skill in the higher forums, it is welcomed and encouraged. It doesn't happen on an extremely regular basis, but it happens. The reason it doesn't happen on a regular basis is because most newcomers to any online poetry forum can't write poetry worth shit. However, when they can, they have absolutely no problem being considered on the same level as regulars. For example, when I first came to PFFA, I posted a poem in High. It was given some good comments, but much of it was trashed, for good reason. The next poem I wrote, I posted to Merciless. It stayed. It recieved some nasty comments, for good reason, so I revised, and posted again to Merciless. This time it was not trashed. My next poem after that was "Lessons in Wood's Craft", and it was welcomed to Merciless. In 3 poems, I was accepted to Merciless with little difficulty.

I guess you may have been an exception however I did not say that newbies are not welcome in the higher forums if their expertise is evident. I believe it is the "tone" of the trashing that makes all the difference. Your work was obviously at a level that belonged in that forum. If I wanted fluff comments I would be at the Pink palace by now as I have been told often enough that is where I belong. I have a little more respect for my determination to improve my writing. However I have seen quite a few threads where I believed the work to be of a lesser quality although most of them could of been before the clamp down and lifting of the bar that I have also read about.

Bullshit. Any apprentice will tell you so. Yes, they can learn some things from their peers. But they're an apprentice to a master craftsman for a reason.

In Australia our apprentices study under the watchful eye of a craftsman. Quite often than craftsman has 4 or 5 apprentices under his wing. That craftsman has enough pride in his own ability to train his apprentices that he allows them to learn from each other without degrading the newest member in front of all his other students. They are all at different levels of learning. The carpentry workshop is alive with activities from all levels, while the craftsman only steps in if needed.

Perhaps I was wanting to know why the reader can feel insulted because the writer did not put enough care and effort into their work? But when the writer feels insulted because the critique was rather unhelpful and telling the poster to go away and not come back then why doesn't the poster have rights? Hopefully they abided by the guidelines and paid their dues with 3 crits. The piece is posted in the appropriate forum for newbies.

The craftsman offers advice on how to grip the hammer, he shows the apprentice where to hit the nail and encourages him to keep practising, under his watchful eye. The master does not hit the poor kid on the head and tell him to go away until he can get a better grip. The craftsman lowers his own expectations to allow the young apprentice find his own grip.

Deb

JohnBoddie

01-03-2004, 04:50 AM

If I am presented with a poem to read and comment on, and I can see that the writer has not put in the effort to review his or her work, correct any first-draft mistakes in spelling and grammar, and use punctuation correctly (if it is used), then I have every right to feel insulted no matter what level of poetic skill is evident.

The writer is demonstrating that he or she has no regard for the reading experience of his or her audience; that he or she is only too happy to delegate the housekeeping work to the reader.

Authors who do not care enough to attend to the basics of the language are wasting the time of those who would read and comment.

We're not talking about abstractions or cliches here. We're talking about a basic respect for the language, which is the only tool that we have to use.

Mine may be a minority opinion, but I feel that any writer who consistently offers poorly prepared work should be barred from further participation, much as a carpentry student who insists on always using an axe instead of a hammer would be quickly dismissed from his or her apprenticeship.

JB

sarahkelley

01-03-2004, 11:07 AM

Hey, Mindsweeper,
Newbie here. I was following this and appreciate the comments by some of our vet critters. I thought you might like a newbie's perspective.
I love the variety of viewpoints I get at PFFA.
When a vet critter take the time to crit my work I'm happy. If they find something worth liking I'm thrilled.
I won't lie and say my feelings have never been crushed. Thing is I learned something when it happened. I'm here to learn.
I started posting at 3 forums at the same time. PFFA is the only one I'm still posting to. I got a bunch of fluff at the others that didn't do me any good. When I get fluff, my reaction is to think the commenter doesn't know what they're talking about.
I took a creative writing course once. The instructer praised me the whole way through and didn't teach me anything. It was a waste of time and money.
We need you to tell us what we're doing wrong. Even if it makes us blush to read what you have to say. Having effort appreciated is nice. One or two sentences to tell us we did something right is awesome, but we don't expect to get that with every post.
As far as posters who ignore spelling and punctuation-- I've dreamed of writing a blanket crit just to say watch your spelling etc. I won't.
But that's so basic; it's the first thing anyone should learn. When they ignore basics it shows an underlying attitude. They don't care about their poetry or their readers. If they're told that it shows they don't care, and they do it again (as it seems most of them do) then PFFA is not for them. They won't care about your critique anyway.
I've read some of your crits and you're quite gentle. Your conscientiousness will forestall overly harsh crits. In any case a few harsh honest crits isn't going to kill any of us.
Best,
Sarah

novapsyche

01-03-2004, 06:43 PM

The reader has no right to be insulted.

This is universally true. Why? Because poetry is a reader-centered experience, not a writer-centered one. This includes the mechanics of spelling, grammar, and punctuation--go ahead and eschew these in your personal journals, but if you're going to take the time to present a piece of writing for a general audience, at least clean it up to where it's legible.

If you feel that the newbies are beneath your own expertise then stick to the higher critical forums. Let the newbies teach each other.

If the majority of newbies have little skill regarding punctuation, spelling and grammar, how can they be expected to give meaningful critique? These basics are necessary to graduate onto higher concepts of writing. If you want to depend on a pool of critics who have little grasp of the English language, that's fine for you. But you might want to be cautious about speaking for the rest of the people in General who might aspire to post in the critical forums. They may well benefit (and, I'd wager, most often do benefit) from the feedback they receive from those of us who have been here awhile.

Everyone is here to participate in a workshop and learn how to write better poetry so that those grammar, spelling and punctuation deficiencies can be improved upon.

No. By the time you come to a workshop, you should already be skilled in grammar, spelling and punctuation. If you aren't, then you need to engage in more private study until your skills with the English language are to a level where you can effectively learn about poetic device (you know, metaphor, symbolism, alliteration, voice, cadence, metre, etc.).

The reader is also a writer and the way I would like to receive advice is much the same way I would give it.

That's fine. But here at PFFA, it's plainly stated that the reader has the priority to respond as he or she pleases. This can be in a blatantly constructive or blatantly blunt way; it's up to the reader/critic.

Go ahead and critique the way you would like to be critiqued. But you need to learn how to take strong critique on the chin and let the blow glance off.

As for the question that mindsweeper originally posed, I'll say that I strive to be honest first and tactful second. In real life, I hold tact in very high regard, so I do try to employ it online. However, the very medium of the Internet makes it easier to deliver blunt critique, so I take advantage of that as well. I feel that critique shouldn't beat around the bush: get to the meat of the matter and be done with it. This generally means that my critique is blunt and brief, but hopefully it's pithy and effective as well.

Donner

01-03-2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Debisa
Once again it comes down to a personal attack? Why are my views considered complaints?

Because of statements like this:

"I have been reading through the High and Merciless forums and to me it is blatantly obvious that it takes a lot of sucking up to the regulars around here to be considered on the same level as them."

Do not hijack this thread in the same manner as you've done with virtually every other thread you've commented on.

Donner

earthshoes

01-04-2004, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by BrianIsSmilingAtYou
Rik's suggestion concerning imagery is good.

There are a number of things to look for:

imagery (as Rik suggested) - talk about "showing" versus "telling".

Talk about ways to use imagery to "paint a picture", how to use imagery in metaphor and simile.

theme - is the approach to the theme effective? Is a theme discernable? Perhaps a suggestion to narrow, focus or identify a theme would help.

Explain what you think the theme is and how you think that the poem attempts to convey this. Tell them you hope this is what they meant--otherwise there may be a problem.

Suggest ways to more effectively convey the theme

sonics - are there interesting sonics that are notable (or otherwise) -- alliteration, assonance, rhyme

Newbies have a tendency over-alliterate, use forced rhyme etc.

voice - is the voice consistent and identifiable? Does the voice makes sense in the context of the theme and the language? Does the narrator intrude? Is it I, I, I?

meter - is there a sense of meter? Does it start out metrical and then peter out?

Attempt to analyse the meter. (This may be a benefit to the critter as well as the one being critted.)

Suggest alternatives if the meter fails at various points.

Is it syllabic? Accentual?

Abstractions - identify abstractions. Give examples of how to express an abstract concept using imagery.

Attempt to relate the theme and voice to the abstractions, and suggest alternatives.

cliches - identify cliches. Explain why they kill poems. Give examples of alternatives.

linebreaks - are the lines all end-stopped?

Is enjambment used well/poorly?

Is the piece prose with line-breaks?

form - is the piece an attempt at an identifiable form?

Explore how it meets or does not meet the requirements of the form.

Alternatively, explore other features of the poem (theme, image, meter, rhyme etc) and see whether the attempt to fit the poem to a form works well, or whether the attempt has done violence to the form

language - is the language archaic, slang, jargon, flat?

Are active verbs used? Is the piece over-modified or spare?

Are nouns and verbs vivid and specific? (Oak instead of tree etc)

Are common errors present: your vs. you're, its vs. it's, spelling, punctuation etc

unity - do the various elements of the poem work together effectively?

A science fiction poem with archaic diction in the form of a sonnet might not work--or it might be a brilliant satire on form and content.

Let them know if it worked or not.

etc

Other things that I do is to judge the poster by their existing posts. Do a search on the user name.

Did the user introduce him or herself in the Newbie forum? Did they indicate that they understand the rules/lurked? Have they done any crits of their own already? Do the quality of their crits indicate that they will respond effectively to what you have to say?

Preface the crit with a disclaimer if you wish. I do at times if it is a newbie and I feel that I may say something that could be taken the wrong way.

Direct your criticism at the piece rather than the writer by your use of language in the crit.

Instead of

"You don't know how to rhyme, and your sentence structure is convoluted."

say

"The piece uses forced rhyme. Notice how the syntax of S1L4 is inverted to accomplish this goal. "

There is much more I could say on this matter.

One of my earliest crits upset a user and they went through a similar baptism by fire in Outside as we have seen recently with another user.

The user that I upset went on to recognize the validity of the crit and the necessity of the way that the forum rules are structured. As long as you are honest and avoid a fluff crit, you should be OK.

Good luck.

BrianIs:)AtYou

This is roughly what I do (though I certainly couldn't have mapped it out as well as Brian did). However, I tend to avoid critting metered work because there are so many others here who have a better grasp of that than I do. Any more, because of time constraints, I don't typically crit pieces I don't like or I don't see some potential in. Too, I don't bother if I don't feel like I have the time and energy to focus on it for an hour or so.

It is my style to remain polite and kind at all costs, but I have learned that telling someone that their work is bad is not rude--in and of itself--if it is followed by a sensible, helpful explanation. ("This piece has several problems that are overwhelming any potential it might have. Let me show you what I mean . . .") I can only think of one or two newbies over the years who didn't take kind of approach this well (Of course, it maybe the infrequency of my crits and the newbies I choose as well).

Someone told me once a long time ago, "Compliments make you want to keep writing. Effective criticism makes you want to write better." Just crit the way you think it should be done.

mary