A spot for abstract poetry

[valentine042002]

I have a small gripe, from which I will also derive a suggestion. Every once in a while (prolly every once in 50 poems or so from what I've read (and I know I'm new but I've been reading things here for over a year)) a really good poem gets taken off of the high critique forums because it has some abstract qualities. I personally really enjoy abstract poetry especially the works of T.S Eliot and the songs of Kurt Kobain. To remedy this I suggest a forum for abstract poetry is added if that is possible. Of course, I will understand if that is not possible, and I thank any mods or Bela in advance for considering this.

[HowardM2]

"Abstract poetry" is by and large a term invented by those who know little about poetry or poetry writing to justify writing poorly; it is not a recognized genre of poetry. Poems that are moved from the upper-level forums because of abstraction are poems that have used abstraction very badly indeed. To understand the difference, spend some time reading the threads on abstraction in "Blurbs," particularly the thread Abstraction Done Well (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9906).

[Porter Doran]

Certainly I am no authority, but abstract poetry is not, I suspect, poetry comprising abstractions -- and it is even less, I wager, poetry comprising imprecisely-used words and phrases.

[valentine042002]

I don't know, Howard. Maybe I'm stupid. I read that and I still don't understand the difference.

P.S. I'm not saying a lot of the poetry taken out of High is because is because it's abstract. 98.9% or so is taken out because it is obviously and entirely bad. I'll search around and see if I can find an example of good poetry with powerful abstractions. Oh, and I think it might help me more if you pointed me to somewhere where there were bad abstractions where it's illustrated why there bad, if that's possible. Again, all of this is just a suggestion. Honestly, trying to be helpful, not a pain in the ass.

[HowardM2]

"I read that and I still don't understand the difference."

That should tell you that you still have an immense amount to learn about poetry; acquiring that knowledge is not a matter of a few minutes of reading, or a few hours, or a few days, or a few weeks. That you think Kurt Kobain is a poet is a symptom of that lack of knowledge. Very few song lyrics can accurately be described as poetry; Kurt Kobain's are not among those few.

[valentine042002]

Poetry as I have defined it, again I claim to be no expert, are words that make you feel some emotion. I I claim song lyrics are poetry when they alone can make me feel. I do agree that most song lyrics cannot be described as poetry, but I have to state that Cobain's are one of the few whose can. (Yes, there are some Nirvana songs that aren't poetry.) I would love to know some songwriters who you believe our poets for curiousity's sake. Again, I'm just trying to better understand, not be a pain in the ass.

[HowardM2]

The standards for writing song lyrics are much, much lower than the standards for writing poetry; it's precisely for that reason that "Songwriter's Block" is separate from the poetry forums and is not one of the critical forums.

"words that make you feel some emotion"--Unfortunately, this is inadequate as a definition of poetry. All kinds of verbal assemblages can make someone feel emotion without ever remotely being poetry, up to and including dog food commercials. "Emotion" alone is not the test of whether something is or isn't poetry; at least equally crucial are the elements of poetic craft.

As to songwriters whose work can sometimes also be poetry, try Paul Simon and Leonard Cohen.

[Rachel Lindley]

Joni Mitchell and Ani Difranco are two others whose song lyrics could also sometimes be considered poetry.

[valentine042002]

I have one more question after which you can delete this or lock it, whatever, and pretend it never happened: How do you define poetry?

[Rachel Lindley]

Bring your lunch. You'll be awhile. (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9888&poems)

[HowardM2]

No one has ever come up with a definition that completely defines poetry; there's a thread around here somewhere that records a number of attempts. Any definition that even begins to be adequate has to incorporate both the means and the effects of poetry.

[HowardM2]

Rachel's found one of the "What is poetry" threads; here's another (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17623&poems).

[valentine042002]

Okay, found your def. in the other post. Thanks.

[HowardM2]

Actually, I didn't give a definition; I was in fact arguing against the possibility of ever fully defining "poetry." As I said in that thread, attempts to define "poetry" tell us much more about the definer than they do about poetry itself. For what that's worth.

[Scavella]

*sigh*

[tbm]

Poetry as I have defined it, again I claim to be no expert, are [sic] words that make you feel some emotion.

"You are a fucking moron."

And for that matter, so am I. Perhaps a new definition of poetry would be less offensive.

bates

[valentine042002]

Yes, monsuier Bates when it comes to Poetry I am. I'm actually much better with prose. I'm just trying to find my way like everyone else.

[Scavella]

*ahem*

I don't think Bates was saying you are a fucking moron. He was demonstrating that words that elicit emotional reactions are not necessarily poetry.

I could of course be wrong.

[Rachel Bunting]

ahem

It's Cobain, not Kobain.

[tbm]

I don't think Bates was saying you are a fucking moron. He was demonstrating that words that elicit emotional reactions are not necessarily poetry.

Bingo.

bates

[Kaltica]

I personally really enjoy abstract poetry especially the works of T.S Eliot and the songs of Kurt Kobain.
Suddenly, I feel very old. I have lived long enough to see the names "T.S. Eliot" and "Kurt Cobain" used in the same sentence.

To remedy this I suggest a forum for abstract poetry is added if that is possible.
If the definition of "abstract poetry" is a literal one (i.e. poetry that relies on abstractions) then I have some good news for you, Valentine042002: click here (http://www.everypoet.net/%7Eeverycom/ppop/). Voilà!

Something for everyone here on Poetry Free-For-All.

I hope this helps, Valentine042002.

Colin

[romac]

There are places for abstract poetry at pffa.

If it’s brilliant, send it to Merciless. And if it really is, it will go down well.

If it’s good but might need a little work, send it to High. (e.g. tbm’s “Abstract of ‘The Fly’”).

Otherwise, send it to Gen C and C, and people will tell you to use images instead, but there will always be someone who might realise that some of your abstractions work (if they do).

And read a lot of Wallace Stevens before posting.

Best of luck, Valentine042002.

romac

[valentine042002]

For someone who I asked, I forget who now),- Abstract poetry should be enriched by abstractions, not dependant. However, 99.9 % is of the dependant kind. The only two famous poets I can think of who reside in that one tenth of a percent are Eliot and Pound. And in my opinion Pound (who really wasn't the greater artist) is sometimes a little shaky. I think the other 99.9% is probably why as Howard so bluntly put it abstract poetry is not usually recognized. Oh and Bates, it's okay. I wasn't offended anway. Everyone needs to be told he's a fucking moron sometimes even if that's not what you were trying to say.