Literary Criticism thread?

[SarahJF]

I've a suggestion. Would it be a nice idea to have a 'literary criticism' thread somewhere that looked at analysing literature (and how to analyse literature). I don't mean pffa poems (not that they aren't super), but a range of poems, by critically acclaimed, etc poets - or just things people like.

Anyway, using texts that are interesting, regardless of their period. Whatever would be useful for aspiring writers to analyse, really. I feel there would be the potential there to learn a lot - not just about how poems are constructed, but how differently readers percieve them/engage with them. I know I'm new, and so probably should be cautiously going by 'village law' and not suggesting anything for at least six weeks, but never mind. It's not a 'don't like' suggestion, it's a proper suggestion.

For the record, without getting dewy-eyed, I'm personally 'thumbs-up' for pffa. And when I joined, I appreciated the fact that the posting guidelines made the forum rules extremely clear, so I knew exactly what I was joining. All good and comprehensible stuff.

Sarah

[JohnBoddie]

Sarah -

If you are looking for industrial-strength literary criticism, on-line workshops are poorly positioned to support it. You'd do better by ordering some god books on the subject.

A good starting point is Hass' "Twentieth Century Pleasures". Pinsky's "the situation of Poetry" is also good.

JB

[HowardM2]

The Why Do You Like That Poem? thread (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4891) in "Blurbs" does something of the sort. There are a few other threads which contain incidentally that sort of thing as well. Personally, I don't think there can be too much of this sort of thing available, and I'd been thinking of starting a new "Why Do You LIke That Poem?" thread.

[Harry R]

If you have some particular poem/poet you'd like people's thoughts on, you can always start a thread in Voyage of Disco.

It's a bit hit and miss what kind of responses you're likely to get. Probably, the more specific the question/observation is that you post, the more likely people are to engage with it seriously, but on the other hand it will limit the scope of the replies as well.

Harry

[SarahJF]

Thank-you very much for replies.

John Boddie
I agree that it'd be difficult to have proper hard-line criticisms (I certainly couldn't carry out any informed critical discussion that mentioned critics any more obscure than Leavis or Wilson Knight). It might be possible, though, to get 'informed discussion of why a poem works for me'?

Thank-you very much for the book recommendations. Not knowing much about current Lit crit, I'd not have heard of them otherwise. I'm going to badger my local library into ordering them for me! Any recommendations for interesting reading matter always welcome.

Howard M[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE]
Thank-you for that link. That's exactly the sort of discussion I meant - I found the first bit of the thread really interesting in particular. It's not just that how a poem works for different people that's interesting, but that one is introduced to authors that otherwise one wouldn't read. Without being too 'umbly Uriah Heep about it all, I think that people (like me) without much experience of looking critically at poetry could really learn things by seeing how people with more critical experience look at poetry. Rather like pffa forums! Not just that, though - anyone's 'take' on a poem is interesting in itself.

Harry R
Do you think that a sort of 'reading group' style might work? So someone would pick a poem to look at that week, give it a brief introduction (a bit about the author, time it was written, etc). Then people would comment on what that poem did for them, and then, at the end of the week, the person who had initially picked the poem could comment on what they thought the response had been like, and why?

More structure, less hit and miss? I don't know this forum like all of you (of course) so obviously you'll know whether that approach would work well (or appallingly!)

Sarah

[SarahJF]

I've been thinking. I'm equating this (again - sorry) to my own experiences talking about artwork/ selling artwork.

I think it's really important that any aspiring poet is at least aware of, and hopefully equipped with the language in which to explain his/her own work. I also think it's really important that aspiring poets are aware of current events in poetry (which I'm aware I'm not, but I'd like to be).

Because it's all very well making super-dooper poems in a friendly workshop, but it's a different thing altogether justifying them, maybe? I know I was taught, pretty much, how to justify my own existence in terms of artwork (and taught the language in which to hold my own in a critical environment) at college, anyway.

And looking at other poets/ artists and discussing them has to be a huuuuge part of this learning process. Plus, it's fascinating. I'd love, for example, to see what other people writing on here think to John Fuller, or Douglas Dunn.

My own agenda aside, how about if I set up a thread that actually stipulated rules about how the conversation would go? So I'd ask for six people who were interested, and they'd all (if I got six people who were interested) suggest poems, and make almost a 'presentation' of that poem. Then, after the presentation, the thread would be open to replies from everyone else about what they thought the poem was about. And, at the end, the starter of the thread, the supplier of the poem, would have to do a kind of 'summation'. It would increase their own critical awareness, and everyone else's, too.

Good idea? Bad idea? If my way of justifying this, and going about it, is completely awful (because I don't know this forum that well) then do tell me, please.


Sarah

[HowardM2]

I've passed your idea along to the other mods; we'll discuss it and get back to you.

[Gabe1]

If you are jonesing for high tension wire academic criticism, then I think that you would be best served by following JohnBoddie's advice. However, if what you are after is a more scatter-shot analysis of things, the idea has some merit at least in entertainment value. But, all things being equal, I suspect you'd go farther starting a book club and going at it that way than trying to carry it off in this medium.

-Gabriel
my two yen

[SarahJF]

Thank-you for passing on the idea to the moderators, Howard M[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE]

That's a very good point, Gabriel. Thank-you for the advice.

Plus, I'm gathering from the resounding silence on this thread of anyone who's new, or newish, that the idea hasn't really grabbed the general forum that much. I'm awfully glad I didn't just race ahead and start a hopeful thread anyway, and that I posted it here first to get feedback!

Sarah

[Harry R]

You can always just have a go, you know. Try it and see.

We do have occasional discussions about third-party poems - someone posts one to Voyage of Disco, and people reply - but they tend to be a bit lightweight. Of the Yup I Like That or Nope I Don't Like That variety. And judging by the Third Party Poems forum at the Gazebo, and the Musing on Mastery forum at Erato, I think that's fairly typical - people like sharing their favourite poems, and will discuss them in a fairly desultory way; but they save the energy needed to properly engage with how a poem works for critiquing other posters's poems and writing their own.

I'm sure it would be valuable to have serious discussions of poems, I'm just not sure how best to organise it.

Harry

[Monk Bretton]

I would recommend that you try it and see. I would also add that if you post a poem and merely say, “I like this because it’s nice,” (as if you would!) then you are unlikely to get much of a response, other than “me too.” If, on the other hand you post something even remotely contentious then you are likely to get a better discussion going. I suppose that is fairly obvious, now I come to think of it.

Oh well, my two pennies, for what they are worth.

Monk.

PS We do have occasional discussions about third-party poems (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21616&poems)

That's probably not what you had in mind.

[SarahJF]

Hello again. Apologies for brevity - life's suddenly got really busy, and I'm shoehorning.

I'll give it a whirl, but I'm going to be really careful about how I phrase the first post, so I won't stick it on tonight (I was thinking of suggesting that people ask other members specific questions about the poem posted. That should promote reasonably structured debate.)

Strange as it sounds, and I sort of hope pffa proves me wrong (because it's such a dull thing) but all the forums I've been part of (and, come to think of it, pretty much all of the social groups I've been part of) loved being asked terribly specific questions about what they thought. Don't ask me why, but it's true. Oh, and now, of course, everyone will read this, and think: " I'm not answering any of that silly person's specific questions, thank-you". Drat.

Thank-you, Harry and Monk for posting. Hurrah, someone who isn't simply being a courteous moderator/veteran posted.

And to quote/link: Haaaaaaaaaa. Five star. With Bells.

[Scotty]

Sarah,

I don't know how many other boards you frequent but I have a link to another poetry site that has a forum along the lines you're suggesting - let me know if you're interested and I'll send it to you so that you can browse and have a look to see if it's close to what you might like.

I personally found it useful in helping me understand some of the layering in poems, use of poetic tools, etc.

Scotty

[SarahJF]

Thank-you Scotty, that would be super. I don't frequent any other poetry boards at the moment. I found this one by a google search for 'poetry forum'. Had to wade through dozens of really, um, interesting poetry places before I found one I could stomach joining!

You're spot on to what I think I'd get out of that sort of critical analysis, too.

I've been dithering about starting a thread here, as Harry suggested, but there's one huuuuuge problem - I can't actually perform academic critiques very well. Part of the reason I want to look at critical discussion is because I want to learn how to do it. At the moment, my critiques, here, are a bit akin to cheesy wine-tasting:

"MMMn, I'm getting a hint of imagery, with a slight sense of doom"
"Bit of a lemony feel there, with a beach picture in the background"

It can't go on. I mean, I'm telling the truth, but it's not really high-quality analysis, is it. And if the starting post is sets the grade, then, umm.


Sarah
(who at least doesn't mention 'shards')

[Scavella]

I'd suggest checking out various threads in Other Venues. That's where we've put our list of alternative poetry sites. Some of the places listed there have fora for exactly what you're asking. Someone's already mentioned Eratosphere; there were some excellent critique threads there last month. Gotta move quick, though: at Erato they purge old posts fast and furious.

Cheers.