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Jee Leong
04-21-2004, 02:55 PM
I was browsing in Barnes & Noble when I picked up Donald Hall's new and selected essays in 'Breakfast Served Any Time All Day'. Bad idea: before I knew it, I had forked out close to $30 to get the hard-cover book. Impulse buying.

The essays are suggestive for me, especially this passage from 'Journal Notes':

Writing poems is not like writing an editorial for a newspaper, or telling how to knit a sweater. In these activities, we search for words to implement an argument or to name an activity already known (known either as inferior or incomplete words, or as images that encode rote action). Much bad writing (or bad reading) results from the confusion of poetry with the use of words in other connections, as if words remained the same material when used as art and as information. Writing poems is more like making sculpture than like making speeches. Poems are objects which we manipulate with the fingers of our tongues. Sculpture is a useful analogy, either carving or modeling, though these methods are different. Sculpture creates volume. Poems have volume as editorial do not. Rodin said that a sculptor must never think of a surface except as the extension of a volume. In a good poem everything pushes up from under, against the taut surface of the word.

The thoughts that came to mind:

(1) I have been thinking of a poem as an 'argument'. While that analogy is useful in insisting on clarity and logicality, it has its limits, like all analogies. What else can poems be if I think of them as 'objects which we manipulate with the fingers of our tongues'?

(2) What does it mean to say 'Poems have volume'? Beyond the use of metaphors that imply volume (e.g. a conceit based on 'boulders' or a poem about sculpture), what other formal or technical elements may give the sense of volume, massive or otherwise?

(3) How are words used differently as art and as information? This question reminds me of Hart Crane's defence of his poetry in his letter to Harriet Monroe based on 'a logic of metaphor' and not everyday logic.

In relation to his line 'Compass, quadrant and sextant contrive no farther tides', Monroe complained that the instruments do not contrive the tides. Crane says:

Hasn't it often occured that instuments originally invented for record and computation have inadvertently so extended the concepts of the entity they were invented to measure in the mind and imagination that employed them, that they may metaphorically be said to have extended the original boundaries of the entity measured?

Crane also defended, in the same letters, lines like 'Frosted eyes lift altars' and 'The dice of drowned men's bones he saw bequeath/An embassy'.

sol
04-21-2004, 03:19 PM
I really can only answer one question. I may very well be wrong, but I'll give you my thoughts.

Originally posted by Jee Leong

(3) How are words used differently as art and as information? This question reminds me of Hart Crane's defence of his poetry in his letter to Harriet Monroe based on 'a logic of metaphor' and not everyday logic.


When trying to express information, the meaning is the object of the communication. Language itself is ultimately in the way. Whatever we express can always be expressed more accurately by adding more and more conditions to what's expressed ad infinitum. This isn't practical because usually we only need to use so much language before we get what we want. If we could communicate with meaning alone, we wouldn't use language. I am no philosopher of language, but I think I am not too far off the mark of Derrida's deconstruction philosophy--or maybe I am.

In poetry, however, the words themselves are the communication. That is why we "show and don't tell." The words are the art form. They are what make it poetry. While the meaning of course is essential, the language also takes on the object in communciation as well. If you were only to get the meaning of the poetic language, would you not be missing out entirely on what makes poetry what it is? And so, that is why the language of poetry is different because simply it matters. In expressing information the language more often doesn't.

I hope that made sense and answered your question.

Dunc
04-21-2004, 06:07 PM
Much bad writing (or bad reading) results from the confusion of poetry with the use of words in other connections, as if words remained the same material when used as art and as information.

Words are words. They remain the same material when used as art as when used as information. It's the way they're applied that makes the difference - the power to emphasise connotation or denotation, precision or ambiguity, novelty or familiarity, form or substance, negative or positive capability, on and on. Poetry is not set apart from the spectrum of word use, any more than 1960s translations of Japanese manuals are. Regards / Dunc

Jee Leong
04-22-2004, 11:09 AM
Words are words. They remain the same material when used as art as when used as information. It's the way they're applied that makes the difference...

Hi Dunc, on one level, I completely agree with the idea above. To put it simplistically, words have denotations and connotations. Their denotative meanings come to the fore when they are used for information while their connotative meanings are exploited in poetry. However, connotative meanings used in poetry can become so familiar (so encoded as Hall puts it) that they lose their power to surprise and suggest. Or the demand for accessible clarity (which is a good and right demand) can limit the range of acceptable uses of words. The 3 Hart Crane lines come from his poem 'At Melville's Tomb', lines which Harriet Monroe found unacceptable.


At Melville's Tomb

Often beneath the wave, wide from this ledge
The dice of drowned men's bones he saw bequeath
An embassy. Their numbers as he watched
Beat on the dusty shore and were obscured.

And wrecks passed without sound of bells,
The calyx of death's bounty giving back
A scattered chapter, livid hieroglyph,
The portent wound in corridors of shells.

Then in the circuit calm of one vast coil,
Its lashings charmed and malice reconciled,
Frosted eyes there were that lifted altars;
And silent answers crept across the stars.

Compass, quadrant and sextant contrive
No farther tides ... High in the azure steeps
Monody shall not wake the mariner.
This fabulous shadow only the sea keeps.

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