Symbolism

[Autumn]

Symbolism was mentioned in a thread in General C&C. This made me think of a poem of mine which I couldn't decide if it should be symbolic, imagistic or metaphoric. I thought I understood the terms individually but when looked at together, I find that I am confused trying to differentiate them. I hope someone can help clear this confusion of mine. And can the whole poem rather than say, only one object in the poem be symbolic or imagistic?

Thanks
Autumn

[HowardM2]

*[SIZE=4]SIGH[/SIZE]*

I promised, 'way long ago, to try to condense my 3-hour introductory lecture on symbolism into something less daunting to post here and ultimately in "Blurbs." I'll try to get something done with it in the next few days (but it will take several days). There are a couple of threads in "Voyage" which mention symbolism, but I don't think there's much there that is of help by way of basic introduction. Bear with me a bit longer and I'll get something posted.

In answer to your specific question: It all depends (red wheelbarrows extra).


Howard

[Autumn]

Thanks, Howard. I know the red wheelbarrow poem and I rather like it a lot. Stuff are alway easier understood when they come from PFFA so I greatly appreciate all the help I get here.

Cheers,
Autumn
[size=0.5]patiently waiting for the thread on symbolism and meanwhile, making a mess of her own poem[/size]

[SarahJF]

Thank-you Howard M[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE] .

I'll be looking forward to reading that, too.

I'm sorry that you're going to have to spend ages condensing things, but I just wanted to add another voice to the 'it really will be appreciated' chorus.

I've little idea about symbolism, personally - well, I've a vague idea of what it is, but I'm probably wrong.

Anyway, I'm burbling.

Hip, hip Hurrah for Howard M[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE],

(I think we ought to cheer him on while he's doing it, at least)


Sarah

[Empty Chairs]

http://www.glenleamyfl.org/images/Cheerleader-animated1.gif

Gimme an H

[SIZE=4]H![/SIZE]

Gimme an O

[SIZE=4]O![/SIZE]

Gimme a W

[SIZE=4]W![/SIZE]

Gimme an A

[SIZE=4]A![/SIZE]

Gimme an R

[SIZE=4]R![/SIZE]

Gimme a D

[SIZE=4]D![/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Goooooo, Howard![/SIZE]

[HowardM2]

Aw, shucks. (Draws circles in dirt with big toe.)

[Dani B]

ooh, I saw this thread in C&C as well...I've been wanting to use symbolism, but likewise have been well aware that my still-relative doofusness in regards to poetic mechanisms would make going-it alone inadvisable. Yay Howard!


--dani b
[SIZE=1]*pasting teeny copies of the Blurbs inside of her contact lenses*[/SIZE]

[cookala]

http://www.postalblessings.com/gratitude.gif

Cookala
Howard, you're amazing me yet again
*hugs*

[Rachel Lindley]

Here's my personal manner of discerning the difference between metaphor and symbolism.

Metaphor is the act of imbuing an object with more meaning by comparing it to something else, be it in an implied fashion or directly. Both parts of a metaphor exist in a poem: the thing being compared, and the thing it is compared to. There's generally little guesswork involved - both pieces of the puzzle are provided. I am a lion. Gentle as a lamb. I - lion. Gentle - lamb. Metaphor is often used to expand in concrete form a psychological state, characteristic, emotional response, etc. That is, the object to which a metaphor applies can be abstract. A symbol is always concrete. An entire poem can be a metaphor - an extended one. For example, Howard had given an example of the personification - a type of metaphor - of science as a woman in a poem by Archibald MacLeish Howard posted in Voyage of Disco somewhere. The entire poem is an extended metaphor - a woman represents science. The benefit of a metaphor is that a subject can be more deeply defined to a reader by giving it characteristics beyond the literal, characteristics one wouldn't normally associate with it. If you compare a woman to an elephant, what are some of the things you can attribute to the woman? Extremely heavy? An incredible memory? A huge nose? Or perhaps something less obvious - wrinkled, leathery skin, a fierce devotion to family, etc. etc. etc.

Symbolism is an effective way of communicating a great deal of information with one symbol. In opposition to metaphor, symbolism does not have an "other half". What's more, symbols are concrete. If you can't pick it up, it's not a symbol. It's a word that has a meaning beyond its literal connotations. Common symbols form in cultures, religions, etc. over time, and certain symbols come to represent an ideology, idea, etc. A cross is a symbol. A red rose is a symbol. A skull and crossbones is a symbol. A dove is a symbol. Road signs are symbols. I don't have to tell you what they symbolise, because you already know. At least, you do if I use symbols that you have been exposed to. However, symbols don't have to be cultural ones, like a menora or a stop sign. Say you write about a horrible fight between a long-married couple, and in her distress the woman accidentally knocks a crystal vase off a table and it shatters into a million pieces. As the story progresses, glass breaking becomes a running occurrence. The breaking glass could be seen as a symbol of the relationship between the couple breaking apart, never to be repaired. It's a symbol, and not a metaphor, because the other half of the equation is not provided. It is left entirely up to the reader to make that connection, and if the idea of glass breaking has never come to represent the idea of a relationship breaking in the mind of a reader, that reader may not make the connection. The same is true for symbols that are culturally or religiously specific. The problem with symbols is that they can limit an audience, or get a different response from different readers depending on their background. Even if a symbol is interpreted as representing one thing, that thing can have very different connotations for different people. A cross is going to mean something very different to a Muslim as it would to a Christian, even when both individuals recognize it as a symbol of Christianity. However, the advantage to symbolism is the sheer volume of extra information that can be communicated with only one symbol.

Some links:

http://www.devco.demon.co.uk/definitions.html

http://www.gc.edu/DistanceEd/English/dtaylor/1302/poetry/symbolism.html

http://poetrymagic.co.uk/imagery.html

http://www.frostfriends.org/figurative.html#metaphor

Rachel

[SarahJF]

Thanks, Rachel Lindley!

Oh, and I seem to be having a really fundamental breakdown in brain at the moment. I mean, I’ve just realised, I’m not an expert on symbolism, but I do know what it is, albeit in a slightly different field (I know I’m a little pre-occupied at the moment, but I should have remembered, really, especially as symbolism in poetry, and symbolism in painting have that tricksy little thing in common to clue me in. Like, they’re called symbolism

And Lo! A pre-raphaelite picture – Holman Hunt, to be precise – The Awakening Conscience (http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/Awakening.html) Look closely at all the clutter on the floor – the tangled wool, the grotty looking bird, the carefully placed Other Stuff. And the link provides a reasonable analysis (better put that any I could provide).


Sarah

Oh, and Howard M
[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE] , have some more moral support (http://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/backgrounds/buttress.jpg)

[B.D.]

J.E. Cirlot's A Dictionary Symbols is very helpful ---- strictly from a 'Joseph Campbell - collective psyche' point of view. It offers potential meanings on a large array of objects/elements, although no mention of rusting bicycle pumps.

[Autumn]

Thanks, Rachel.

I like both “Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening” and “The Road Not Taken” very much. This is the sort of symbolism I have in mind and which I had wanted to work into a poem of mine. A reader had read my poem as purely descriptive and did not know what I’m getting at. I know it merely means my failure as the writer. I’m interested to know how to make it work given that a symbolic poem is opened to various interpretations by different readers depending on their background.

I suppose the answer to this would have to be specific to the poem and what I’m trying to communicate, like the example of glass breaking. But are there any general points which I have to bear in mind when I’m writing the poem such as when I’m writing a metaphor I’ve to always make sure the connection between the vehicle and the tenor is accurate and clear?

Thanks also to everyone who supported this thread by your motivating cheers to Howard.

Autumn

[Rachel Lindley]

Originally posted by Autumn
A reader had read my poem as purely descriptive and did not know what I’m getting at. I know it merely means my failure as the writer. I’m interested to know how to make it work given that a symbolic poem is opened to various interpretations by different readers depending on their background. It all depends on the symbol's level of failure with your audience as to how much work you need to do to reinforce its significance. There is simply no way to make a symbol universal. It's just not going to happen. Some will get it; some won't. A strong symbolic poem, in my opinion, is one that can stand on its own as a strong descriptive poem even if the symbol is misinterpreted or missed. Sure, the reader may not read the same poem that the writer wrote, but if its construction is sound enough, the poem should be able to withstand the open-endedness of symbolic interpretation.I suppose the answer to this would have to be specific to the poem and what I’m trying to communicate, like the example of glass breaking.Yep.But are there any general points which I have to bear in mind when I’m writing the poem such as when I’m writing a metaphor I’ve to always make sure the connection between the vehicle and the tenor is accurate and clear?Yep again. I wrote a blurbie on accuracy of metaphors in my uberblurb "Focus and Filters" that talks about making sure you do your research and also avoiding mixed metaphors. However, "clarity" is another open-ended term. Once again, you have to choose your audience and by doing so gauge a metaphor's success with a reader. You are simply not going to reach everyone who reads your poetry. Period. There will always be someone who doesn't get it, gets confused by it, and doesn't like it.

Clarity of metaphor does not mean you have to beat a reader over the head with the connection: "See? Right here, where I'm pointing the neon arrow. That's the metaphor. Get it? Huh? Huh?" Metaphors can be quite subtle, but as always it's a fine line between subtlety and obscurity. Practice helps inform the writer, as well as being able to gauge the difference between informed and uninformed critique. There's really no other way, no litmus test, that will let you know if a symbol or a metaphor is successful in a poem.

Rachel

[Autumn]

Thanks very much for the help, Rachel. Your clarification made me even more eager to write a 'good' symbolic poem, heh. While waiting for Howard's blurb, I'll go read "Focus and Filters" again, now zeroing in on metaphor!

Cheers,
Autumn

[SarahJF]

http://www.english-gardening.com/images/PL0000004306_card.jpg

Just wanting to throw some laurels at Howard M[SIZE=1]2[/SIZE] .


Sarah

[Lola Two]

Come now, Sarah, his head's not that big.

Lola

[HowardM2]

Shrubbery! Ni!

[sarahkelley]

Shrubbery! Ni!

Who'd have thought?
Just want to echo SarahJF's thanks. Sans laurels.
Best,
SarahK

[Autumn]

Hey, Howard. Thanks a zillion.

Autumn

[amaranthus]

Remarkable, Howard. I just worked my way through the section of Perrine's on Symbolism and had a bunch of questions - all of which you answered.

Thanks
Carol

and thanks to Autumn who asked the question in the first place.

[Autumn]

Originally posted by amaranthus
and thanks to Autumn who asked the question in the first place.

You're welcome, Carol. I'm glad I did too (ask the question).

And Howard, thank you again. I read your thread 'Introduction to Symbolism' and already understood from what you have written, what is required to make symbolism effective in a poem (though writing a successful poem is another matter altogether, heh). You made the topic so easily understood. Thanks, thanks, thanks.

Autumn
[size=0.5]patiently waiting for Part 2[/size]

[HowardM2]

Hope it's being helpful.

Part III's now up, sooner than I thought. Just not sure when I'll get to the last part; there's some serious kitchen-wrecking and rebuilding currently under way . . . .

[sarahkelley]

It's helpful. It's brilliant. Of course, I'll have to read it a few more times. Can't read these thing just once. Or twice.
Thank you Howard.

Sarah
forgiving Howard
for the chant royal
suggestion

[Autumn]

Originally posted by Autumn
Autumn
[size=0.5]patiently waiting for Part 2[/size]

I mean Part III.:o

Yes, it's most helpful. I'm off to read Part III now.

Autumn
can't wait to read the chant royal
by the PFFA Apprentice finalists!

[SarahJF]

Thank-you Howard.

That’s extraordinarily helpful. I ‘did’, Othello for ‘A’ level, you see. And all the critics were banging on continually about ‘Symbolism in Othello’. Anyway, I’ve never had a bloody clue as to what the damn thing meant, really, apart from that it had something to do with the ‘Moon’ and ‘Stars’. So I got the impression that ‘symbolism’ was uniformly grandiose, or at least tied inextricably to grandiosity and declamatory language (Scarily, I did well at the exam, but that’s probably because exams aren’t really – at least at ‘A’ level, about an actual personal understanding of a thing, I don’t think – more about whether one can rattle off a dull as dull standardised essay.)

So it’s lovely, lovely, to actually grasp a concept years later, when I thought it’d be worrying away at me. I’m still going to have to go, for the time being, at least, through the ‘it stands for… which means’ level in my head before I'm sure, but at least I’ll be able to read something, and actually approach it with a reasonable, step-by-step understanding. And my analysis should now be reasonably accurate.

I can’t really thank you enough for that. But I’m not going to go icky, promise. I’ll wish you, ummm, speedy Kitchen renovations, instead.

You do have a camping kettle to hand for hot beverage, I hope?


Sarah

[mindsweeper]

Howard,

This is extremely useful. As one who has always been interested in symbolism, largely because so much symbolism is used in the Bible, and that is where I first began to understand its usage, I am delighted to have my horizons expanded in regard to this fascinating topic. It is particlarly useful to have spelt out for one the difference between metaphor and symbolism which, although grasped at a very basic level, has never been truly understood. Thank you. I look forward with much anticipation to reading Part 2.

Ruth

[HowardM2]

Okay, it's finally finished ( I think). I'm going to leave the thread locked until tomorrow morning to give myself a chance to proofread again and see if there are any other changes or additions I need to make at this point. Then I'll open the thread up for questions, comments, and discussion.


Howard the Pooped

[Autumn]

Yay Howard! Have a cake. You deserve it.

http://www.maisonblanc.co.uk/products/patisserie/chocolate/images/jouretnuit.jpg

[HowardM2]

Ooooh, yum! *gobble gobble snort chomp* Thank you; it was delicious.