A question about modifiers

[cookala]

Hi, all. Alasdair just analyzed a poem I posted in AGC&C by breaking it down and listing nouns, verbs and modifiers - and that got me to wondering - is there any [COLOR=deeppink]general[/COLOR] rule of thumb (excuse the cliche!) when it comes to an allowable number of modifers it's ok to have in a poem vs the number of nouns and verbs? or is that number just something to be considered on a poem by poem basis?

thanks in advance!!!

[HowardM2]

Obviously, there's nothing as simple as a set number or even a ratio, but the tendency in the past 100 years has been away from too much modification and focusing on rather leaner language that gets the most from modifiers precisely by limiting the number of them, so that those which do appear stand out. This "Blurbs" thread (http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9952) (yes, Virignia, of course there's a "Blurbs" thread") discusses the subject.

[cookala]

Hiya, Howard! I have that thread in my book, I'll have to read it again. I remember it was a great article on modifiers. I thought it might be a stupid question, but I figured what the hey. thanks for answering!!! :D

[Rachel Lindley]

There's also a section on modifiers in my uberblurb. Essentially, it depends on the context of the poem, the subject matter, the diction that works best for the subject matter, and the overall structure. A good way to gauge the overuse of modifiers is to look at your verbs. If your modifiers outweigh / overpower the type and number of verbs you've used, you've likely overmodified. The one exception to that is the list poem. In that case, it's the nouns you should use as a comparison. Verbs and then nouns should essentially be the driving forces behind any poem. If not, there's likely a problem.

Now keep in mind that you can have a whole whack of verbs and nouns, but if the choices are weak, they're going to be completely overpowered by the modifiers. Actually, that's usually why the modifiers end up being used - because the verbs and nouns don't communicate enough on their own. Essentially, it's like looking at a poem wearing a Liberace suit. Also, if a modifier can be stricken from a poem without really altering the essential meaning and direction the poem takes, why the hell is it there?

Now I'm big on my modifiers, and I'm not particularly fond of a great deal of spare poetry, so as Howard said it's really on a poem-by-poem basis. It's all relative, but make sure the who or what and what they're doing is what's in control in a poem.

Rachel

[TanyaLS]

Good question, cookala. I've been wondering the same thing, and I do try to use only the most vital adjectives. Modifiers, the phrases, are another story. A secondary question to cookala's: are there any poems, that we know of, that use no modifiers? Only ones that are successful, of course, and preferably longer than four lines. I'd like to know just as an extreme example, reference point, of how it's done.


Tanya

[cookala]

Hi, Rachel. thank you! I have that uber, too - I will definitely be absorbing that again over the weekend along with the one Howard pointed me to. You and Howard, and all the mods here, are really the best - you're all such wellsprings of knowledge when it comes to poetry. You're all such an inspiration to me to learn more and grow more. I know that sounds real sappy, but I mean it. I really appreciate you all!

[Tony Hoffman]

Actually, there is such a formula (desired ratio between nouns + verbs and modifiers). It's known as Golias' Razor and it was bounced around on Eratosphere a year or two ago. It's believed he recommended (it's hard to tell, because Golias/Wiley's original posts on the subject were for self-deleted by some reason unknown to me) a ratio of at least 2.8-1. At any rate, here are some threads from E'sphere that at least touch on the subject:

http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/Forum19/HTML/000210.html
http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/ubbhtml/Forum3/HTML/000310.html

I even tried Golias' Razor on one of my poems (after someone sprung it on me). Sure enough, it proved overmodified, so I paired it down accordingly. Of course, Golias' Razor is just a rule of thumb, but a revealing one.

--Tony

[cookala]

Ah, Tony, thank you. I remember the razor now! some part of my mind knew there was something. Thanks for reminding me!

[Alasdair]

Hey Cookie,

One exercise I sometimes do, which I think was suggested by Harry, is to remove all the modifiers and then see if my poem still conveys the central message I intended. If not then I try to think of other ways to produce the images.

The first poem I posted to the PFFA had horribly overworked modifiers: uncaring, dazzling, sickening. Urrrggghhh. It's a good ego check for me to reread it now and then.

Cheers,

Alasdair

[cookala]

Cheers, Alasdair - that's a great idea! thanks for offering that up - it will be very useful as a check to keep myself under control with it comes to moderators. I've always had a weakness for them.

[Melanie]

Originally posted by cookala

keep myself under control with it comes to moderators.
I've always had a weakness for them.

**Any one in particular?
[size=1]I'm not saying which I've a weakness for.[/size]

[HowardM2]

Ah, there she was, so Jung and fair, wearing only a Freudian slip.

[cookala]

*gasp* followed by an Oy! I can't believe I did that!

cookala
blushing ten shades of scarlet
and swearing she really meant to say modifiers!
:o

[SarahJF]

Shhh.

*Draws Cookala to one side*

Which one do you have a penchant for?

[SIZE=1]You can tell me, honest. I won't let your secret slip to a soul[/SIZE]

[cookala]

Oh, mercy me. I will never live this one down. It's almost as bad as the bumble bee poem.

cookala
hiding anywhere she can

[Alasdair]

1. Originally posted by cookala
...Howard, and all the mods here, are really the best - you're all such wellsprings of knowledge when it comes to poetry. You're all such an inspiration to me to learn more and grow more. I know that sounds real sappy, but I mean it. I really appreciate you all! 2. Originally posted by cookala ...it will be very useful as a check to keep myself under control with it comes to moderators. I've always had a weakness for them.Cookie, we are all friends here. You can come clean. Tell us who you want to make your cuddle muffin. Assuming it is only one Mod, of course. Who knows, we may be able to set something up.

Cheers,

Alasdair

[cookala]

OMG.

cookala
of the zipped lips
and scarlet face

[sarahkelley]

Wixx started a thread at the Hole that could hold the key to this riddle.

Sorry Cookala. This is just too much fun.:p
Sarah
also has issues with mod-
ifiers
and PPP's

[cookala]

et tu, sarahkelly?

cookala
feeling the bullseye on my back
;)

[mindsweeper]

I'm not going to do a Brutus on you, Cookie,

The evil that men do lives after them
the good is oft interred with their bones

Ruth
[SIZE=1]wondering whether this thread will be immortalised in Blurbs of Wisdom)[/SIZE]

[cookala]

At last, someone who understands!

cookala
:D