Just passing through...

[Donner]

OK, here's this lonely forum with no one to fill up the space, so I thought I'd be the first. Not counting Bela, of course. He had to.

So, I've been thinking about this abstract vs. concrete idea thing and wondering, what exactly does that mean? How does one acheive it and does one recognize it when one writes in the concrete? An example might help or some references to look up and study. I know, I know...I'm supposed to know these things. But life is full of everything but time these days, so I need some Cliff Notes here.

My goal is to be able to express my thoughts to others, to communicate ideas and feelings, in simple human terms. Get from Point A to Point B without losing the reader. Learn this craft called poetry a bit better.

Help!

Donner

[Bela]

Hi Donner,

(hey whaddya mean I had to post a message? These voices in my head have no control over ... what? nothing, I was just... what? sorry).

Anyway, there are others here far more qualified to respond to your question, but here's my humble.

I think a poem can be more effective if it clearly expresses an idea or observation from the poet's point of view.

If the poet uses wide generalities, such as "love", the reader really has no idea what the poet means, since an abstraction such as "love" has very different implications for different people.

On the other hand, if the poet writes about love by describing concrete aspects of its expression, the reader may get a sense of what is being said.

An example that comes from mind (not from poetry, but whatever) is from Heinrich Böll's The Clown. The main character, a clown, would routinely spend hours at a time staring at his face in the mirror in order to hone his expressive skills for the practice of his art. However, in doing so, he would gradually lose himself entirely in that face staring back at him.

To save himself after these exercises, he would run to his lover and find his own tiny reflection in the corner of her eyeballs. When she left him, he could no longer do his exercise, because there was no one to get him out of the mirror.

The couple of sentences of the book that contain the simple, concrete description of this behaviour say a lot more about love than a gazillion abstractions could, in my opinion.

Just a thought. Don't know if it's of any use.

All the best,

Bela

[Donner]

Thanks mucho; that helps alot. It would seem the point is to let the reader into your mind, scary as that may be on occasion. That gives me something *ahem* concrete to chew on. http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

More feedback, anyone?

Donner

[Julie]

Originally posted by Donner:
OK, here's this lonely forum with no one to fill up the space, so I thought I'd be the first. Not counting Bela, of course. He had to.

So, I've been thinking about this abstract vs. concrete idea thing and wondering, what exactly does that mean? How does one acheive it and does one recognize it when one writes in the concrete? An example might help or some references to look up and study. I know, I know...I'm supposed to know these things. But life is full of everything but time these days, so I need some Cliff Notes here.

My goal is to be able to express my thoughts to others, to communicate ideas and feelings, in simple human terms. Get from Point A to Point B without losing the reader. Learn this craft called poetry a bit better.

Help!

Donner

Hi, Donner.

Well, to start, let's think about abstractions. Let's say
I wrote these lines:

I am so angry
and sad
because my love is gone.

This is very abstract (and pretty awful). I know what it
means, and you may, too. So what's the problem?

Well, it's this. The only real item in the above is the
"I." I'm the only thing there. But I don't give you
any way of knowing who I am.

What does "angry" mean to you? Red faced and screaming?
Sulking? Cold and distant?

How about "sad"? Crying? Still? Listless?

What does "my love is gone" mean? Does it mean that the
emotion love is gone, or that the one I love is gone?

How about that love, anyway? If it's a lover, does it mean
someone I was intimate with? Having sex with? What?

And gone, what does gone mean? Left the building? Dead?

How about if we make the last line even *more* abstract:

I am angry
and sad
because you are gone.

Now we know even less than we did before.

Is the speaker male or female? Does that matter? I think
it can. Do we know anything about the "you"? Nothing but
that it is gone.

The problem with abstractions like emotions is that you
would likely define them in a way I wouldn't even recognize.
What is meant to have universal meaning, then, turns out
not to mean much of anything.

Abstract versus concrete is just part of a larger argument:
general versus specific.

"The tree bends in the wind."

I can write that thinking of a huge maple tree and a gale-
force wind. But when you read it, what if you think of a
spindly Joshua tree and a brisk breeze?

"The maple bends in the wind."

Well, that helps a little. Now we're on the same page,
tree-wise, but wait. I mean that huge tree and you're
thinking of a sapling.

"The huge maple bends in the wind."

Are we on the right track? We're getting closer. But
I was thinking of a maple in winter, and you pictured a
fully-leafed maple in summer...

See? The more specific I am, the better I am able to convey
the image that I'm imagining to you.

Is this making any sense?




------------------

Julie Carter

Read more poetry!

[Gregory James Nagy]

Donner, Julie and Bela,
This is great! And it ought to be required
reading for folk on the High Critique Forum.
Thanks,
greg

p.s. oh, I believe that Bela and Gary are somehow
related now... uhhh... yeah.... that's it. They
both spell favor as favour... ah ha http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif
haha Don't worry Bela your secret is
safe with me. http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif well sort of...

[garyg]

Originally posted by Gregory James Nagy:
Donner, Julie and Bela,
This is great! And it ought to be required
reading for folk on the High Critique Forum.
Thanks,
greg

p.s. oh, I believe that Bela and Gary are somehow
related now... uhhh... yeah.... that's it. They
both spell favor as favour... ah ha http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif
haha Don't worry Bela your secret is
safe with me. http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif well sort of..

Bela doth inhabit the sweet country of Svierge, and possibly was educated by some people of Anglo-Saxon extraction.

My domicile is in the Great White Northern land of Canada, latitudinally similar to the land of Mats, Lars, et.al. but we doth encompass both American and British spellings here. I add the U, but draw the line at substituting the s for the z in civilized. Not that British and Civilised should actually be seen drinking in the same bar.

garyg

Julie is from Ohio, I used to live there, but not since Armstrong of Wapakoneta did stroll upon the lunar landscape.

I fervently pray that thou hast not contacted Oliver Stone yet.

[Gregory James Nagy]

Originally posted by garyg:
Originally posted by Gregory James Nagy:
Donner, Julie and Bela,
This is great! And it ought to be required
reading for folk on the High Critique Forum.
Thanks,
greg

p.s. oh, I believe that Bela and Gary are somehow
related now... uhhh... yeah.... that's it. They
both spell favor as favour... ah ha http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif
haha Don't worry Bela your secret is
safe with me. http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif well sort of..

Bela doth inhabit the sweet country of Svierge, and possibly was educated by some people of Anglo-Saxon extraction.

My domicile is in the Great White Northern land of Canada, latitudinally similar to the land of Mats, Lars, et.al. but we doth encompass both American and British spellings here. I add the U, but draw the line at substituting the s for the z in civilized. Not that British and Civilised should actually be seen drinking in the same bar.

garyg

Julie is from Ohio, I used to live there, but not since Armstrong of Wapakoneta did stroll upon the lunar landscape.

I fervently pray that thou hast not contacted Oliver Stone yet.



Uh... so your sayin' it's a canadian conspiracy then?!
Haha! Oh, and I called Oliver and he said the poetry
conspiracy thing has been overdone, so your safe. http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif
Now where did I put that aluminum hat???
Greg

[Donner]

Thanks Julie...that helps quite a bit. I looked up the definitions of "poem", "poet" and "poetry" in my trusty Webster's Seventh Collegiate Dictionary:

Poem...1: a composition in verse 2: a piece of poetry communicating to the reader the sense of complete experience 3: a creation, experience, or object likened to a poem

Poet...1: one who writes poetry 2: a creative artist of great imagination and expressive gifts and special sensitivity to his medium

Poetry...1: a metrical writing 2: writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm 3a: a quality that stirs the imagination b: a quality of spontaneity and grace

So now, I take all this information, chew on it, read lots and lots more poetry and maybe, just maybe, I can begin to craft poems that are worthwhile and express my feelings and ideas on a particular subject in a way that brings the reader along with me.

Then there's prose. How does that all fit in with poetry? http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

Donner

PS...garyg...ohio...Canadians...foreign spellings...greg...Forum potentates...Oliver Stone...world conspiracy headquarters located somewhere in Sweden...I think I'll just take two aspirin and write a poem in the morning....

[carodin]

Donner? What was that about headache remedies? Got any to spare? *lol*

Gary: oh, beware of stereotyping. *sigh*

Bela / Julie? Could you please tell me the date that this area was created? It is relevant to a post I'd like to place elsewhere.
Thanks.
http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

[Bela]

Hi Carodin,

If you mean the date the whole "Free-for-all" was launched, that would be New Year's Eve, 1999. I thought it was a good way to keep armageddon at bay.

Cheers,

Bela

[carodin]

Hi Bela,

Thanks for that info.

Apologies, i actually meant what date was this section created, the "Voyage of Discovery" area?
Armageddon? *thinkin'* hmmm, http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif

[dls]

Originally posted by Donner:

Then there's prose. How does that all fit in with poetry? http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

Donner


Thought for the day...if a poet is someone who writes poetry, is someone who writes prose a prozac? http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by dls (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Bela]

Originally posted by carodin:
Hi Bela,

Thanks for that info.

Apologies, i actually meant what date was this section created, the "Voyage of Discovery" area?
Armageddon? *thinkin'* hmmm, http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif http://www.selendy.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif

Oops, terribly sorry.

This forum was created on February 28th.

Cheers,

Bela

[carodin]

dls ~ *hoot of laughter*

Bela ~ thankyou kindly. Oh yeah, humour receptors restored re fish jokes. *giggle*

[Elli Taccin]

Julie,

As a poster of a "cliche-ridden", "abstract" "poem", (LOL). I found this most helpful.
Thanks!

Well, to start, let's think about abstractions. Let's say
I wrote these lines:

I am so angry
and sad
because my love is gone.

This is very abstract (and pretty awful). I know what it
means, and you may, too. So what's the problem?

Well, it's this. The only real item in the above is the
"I." I'm the only thing there. But I don't give you
any way of knowing who I am.

What does "angry" mean to you? Red faced and screaming?
Sulking? Cold and distant?

How about "sad"? Crying? Still? Listless?

What does "my love is gone" mean? Does it mean that the
emotion love is gone, or that the one I love is gone?

How about that love, anyway? If it's a lover, does it mean
someone I was intimate with? Having sex with? What?

And gone, what does gone mean? Left the building? Dead?

How about if we make the last line even *more* abstract:

I am angry
and sad
because you are gone.

Now we know even less than we did before.

Is the speaker male or female? Does that matter? I think
it can. Do we know anything about the "you"? Nothing but
that it is gone.

The problem with abstractions like emotions is that you
would likely define them in a way I wouldn't even recognize.
What is meant to have universal meaning, then, turns out
not to mean much of anything.

Abstract versus concrete is just part of a larger argument:
general versus specific.

"The tree bends in the wind."

I can write that thinking of a huge maple tree and a gale-
force wind. But when you read it, what if you think of a
spindly Joshua tree and a brisk breeze?

"The maple bends in the wind."

Well, that helps a little. Now we're on the same page,
tree-wise, but wait. I mean that huge tree and you're
thinking of a sapling.

"The huge maple bends in the wind."

Are we on the right track? We're getting closer. But
I was thinking of a maple in winter, and you pictured a
fully-leafed maple in summer...

See? The more specific I am, the better I am able to convey
the image that I'm imagining to you.

Is this making any sense?

[Neophyte]

Julie--
Thanks for the post! You've helped me tremendously!

------------------
Heidi
music.jd.2b@justice.com
www.geocities.com/music_jd_2b/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/music_jd_2b/index.html)

[This message has been edited by Neophyte (edited 12-19-2000).]