Alexander Pope

[Andrea345]

I'm about to try him again. However, I am deaf, at the moment, to Alexander Pope. This is in the same way I was (am) deaf to Robert Frost's poetry before I read Mary Oliver's <u>Rules of the Dance</u>. The way she wrote about "how to read" Frost's "Bereft" changed my understanding of Frost's poem and poetry.

I'm about to start the Steele Book <u>All the Fun's In How You Say a Thing</u>. It has a lot of Pope references, but is there another book out there, appropriate for a beginner, which you think bares the beauty of "how to read" Alexander Pope?

I'm working my way through the Sister Bear thread. If it's one of those titles, just throw it at me. If it isn't on the list, well, then it should be and I need to know about it.

Hopefully someone has written about Pope to introduce him to another generation.

Thanks
-a



[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 05-23-2001).]

[Harry Rutherford]

Sorry, no useful advice, except to point out that we are culturally so out of sympathy with the C18th as to mean that you may never really like Pope very much. I think that it is the least immediately appealing period of English verse.

In about 1810 (guessed date) Hazlitt pointed out that 'elegance' was no longer regarded as a quality to aspire to in poetry. Since this has only become more true in the intervening two centuries, and Pope was the absolute msater of elegant verse, he can be a bit hard to take.

Harry

[Andrea345]

"Elegant verse", I hadn't heard that one before. "Culturally out of sympathy" is another good way of looking at my discomfort while reading.

Harry, it sounds as though appreciate for Pope is "passed down" in snippets and examples. Has anything about Pope struck you that I should think of while reading?

-a

[Julie]

Originally posted by Andrea345:

Harry, it sounds as though appreciate for Pope is "passed down" in snippets and examples. Has anything about Pope struck you that I should think of while reading?



I think it's easy to consider Pope rather cold and boring, so it's one of the few times I think it appropriate to think about a few items in his biography.

He was a Roman Catholic in an era in England when Roman Catholics were reviled. He was not permitted to go to university, so he was largely self-educated.

He had tuberculosis of the spine, which dwarfed him and gave him severe health problems. He had a hunchback and I think he never topped 4'6".

He was a hated man, called a vile, twisted monkey and hunchbacked toad by his enemies. Even his best friend, Lady Mary Montagu, turned against him with vicious remarks. He turned their blatant cruelties into subtle ones, returning their jibes in smooth, elegant verse that none of them could match. Put on your sarcasm, irony, and insult detectors when you read him, and it's helpful to have an annotated copy of his works that may point out some of the more obscure references. The Dunciad is a joy of satiric wit.

He had the last laugh. He's the second most quoted poet in history after Shakespeare.

Pope is subtle, scathing, serious, and silly. I adore him.

Julie

[Andrea345]

I'll start searching for annotated copy, but do you have a favorite and a favorite biography if they're not in one and the same book?
Thanks
-a

[Julie]

Originally posted by Andrea345:
I'll start searching for annotated copy, but do you have a favorite and a favorite biography if they're not in one and the same book?
Thanks
-a

I'll let you know when I get home. I'll have to dig out some books!

Julie

[Andrea345]

Please.
Thanks
-a


[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 05-25-2001).]

[Julie]

Hey, Andrea. Sorry for the delay. I thought I had two biographies of Pope, but I could only find one, and it's enormous. Not something for a casual reader.

But, I found my favorite annotated copy of Pope's major works: Poetry and Prose of Alexander Pope, edited by Aubrey Williams. Riverside edition: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395051568/o/qid=990847132/sr=8-2/ref=aps_sr_b_1_2/104-9642533-9176736

It's excellent. It only has a few of his minor stuff, but has the big stuff, including the whole Dunciad--which I heartily recommend if you are willing to tackle it.

The biography I could find on the shelves is by Maynard Mack. As I said, it's enormous, about 1000 pages and pretty dry. Alexander Pope: A Life: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393022080/qid=990847407/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_2/104-9642533-9176736

I'm not a big fan of biography, so the merits of this volume are probably lost on me.

Hope this helps.

Julie

[Andrea345]

Julie -
Thanks so much for looking this up. No problem with the delay. I'll check around my library as well and if I find something else, I'll post it here as well.

I'm leaving off the Critical Essays and starting on "The Rape of the Lock" until the copy with Duncaid comes in. The first stanza put a smile on my face. heh. Here's a hyperlinkOne link to the On-Line Books page: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/books/

This 2nd link is an annotated version of "Rape of the Lock" complete with pictures! heh. http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~sconstan/

-a

[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 06-02-2001).]

[Andrea345]

Julie,
The Aubrey Williams text is quite helpful. I still can't read Pope except in small snippets. Howard Miller, THANK YOU for your patience. He's giving me small pieces to mark up & look closely at. That slows me down a lot & keeps me from bouncing across the text so quickly I miss Pope's manipulations.

However, the point of my post was to add a moment of contrast. Colley Cibber, Poet Laureate to King George II opens his play, Richard III with:
3: At any time when you see him here,
4: Let no Stranger into the Garden:
5: I wou'd not have him star'd at -- -See ! Who's that
6: Now entring at the Gate ?

This replaced Shakespeare's version for over 100 years? gak! Will be searching for "better" examples which would explain why he was Poet Laureate... As a contrast to what Pope was producing, it's drivel. I don't get it. I mean, I get the politics of the period but I don't get how this guy's work would be "Poet Laureate" material. Sure puts Pope into perspective, fast.

[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Howard Miller]

"The Aubrey Williams text is quite helpful."

Williams was my teacher at the University of Florida; his text came out while I was a student there, so we got to use it. Williams was the finest teacher I ever had.


Howard

[Andrea345]

So this is how Pope is passed down. Good job, Howard. Good job, Julie.
-a

[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Julie]

Originally posted by Howard Miller:
Williams was my teacher at the University of Florida.


I hate you.

I have always hated you, and always will hate you.

Ooh, ask me how much I hate you.

Julie

[Andrea345]

Julie,

How Colley Cibber of you. Yes, Howard is a great person for describing Pope's use of modulation. Opened my deaf ears, lemme tell you. Both you and he are "passing the torch" to a 40 year old, childless woman, who nonetheless, says "THANKS!" to you both.
-a

p.s. Please note, Howard, how I am refraining from "volunteering" you as "others" in this forum have been "volunteered" by "others like me." I told you it was a great write-up.


[This message has been edited by Andrea345 (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Howard Miller]

Julie--
I hate you.
I have always hated you, and always will hate you.
Ooh, ask me how much I hate you.

I'm sorry, Julie; how 'bout if I promise never to do it again? (Perhaps this would not be a good time to mention that I was also a student of Antz Oraz who, at the time, was considered the scholarly authority on prosody? No, probably not.)

Andrea--
Please note, Howard, how I am refraining from "volunteering" you
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now, about your homework . . . .


Howard

[gecian]

Matthew Arnold refused to acknowledge that Pope was a poet because, in his opinion, he wrote with his "wits" instead of his "soul". Pope's poetry is not the "deep&soulful" stuff you get from Romantics like Wordsworth or neo-Romantics like Dylan Thomas.

Pope's language might often appear "contrived", but that's how it's supposed to be. Do not expect to identify with his work; only to admire him for having written it so beautifully.

I find Pope more appealing than Wordsworth (or Arnold). The Dunciad is marvellous; An Essay on Man is nice too. (Haven't read The Rape of the Lock yet).

If you like The Dunciad, you might also like Dryden's Mac Flecknoe, which you'll find on the University of Toronto's site.

G.

[Howard Miller]

Pope's poetry is not the "deep&soulful" stuff you get from Romantics

Try Pope's Eloise to Abelard if "deep & soulful" is your thing.


Howard

[J. Fish]

Read The Dunciad, and pretend it's Monty Python. Not at all as difficult as you might think.

Of course, if you hate Monty Python, I've just made things worse. Bugger.

cheers

Joe.

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Ikea ergo sum

[gecian]

Originally posted by Howard Miller:
Try Pope's Eloise to Abelard if "deep & soulful" is your thing.


Eloisa to Abelard: As close to "soulful" as you can get without a "soul".

Wouldn't rate Pope highly as an emotional poet.

Monty Python isn't in rhyming couplets.

Thanks for the title, Howard.

G.

[This message has been edited by gecian (edited 06-29-2001).]

[J. Fish]

The Philosopher Song is.

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Ikea ergo sum

[This message has been edited by J. Fish (edited 06-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by J. Fish (edited 06-29-2001).]