Because I love you all so much, a little blurb about cliches

[Gabe1]

This is an excerpt from a writing book I stumbled across and I think it a fine discussion:

"Cliches- stale, timeworn too familiar words and phrases- are best avoided in favor of freshness. The language of poetry pays attention, and it is the nature of a cliche not to pay attention. Recently a newspaper carried this sentence: "I think we are enjoying the backlash of the moral decline that peaked in Watergate,' Dr. Weber said." Enjoying a lash of any kind seems unlikely; and the peak of a decline is language that isn't listening to itself at all.

You can test for a cliche by asking yourself whether the word, phrase, or image you're using is particular or generic. If you say, "She's always there for me," where is there? When you need support and companionship, wouldn't you rather have her here than there? If you're writing about a rainbow, do you see a real rainbow with all its translucence, transience, and tenuousness? No rainbow looks exactly like another. Or do you see the graphic artist's generic sentimental symbol: neat little arches lined up according to the spectrum, violet to blue, flat colors? If you're thinking of the latter, you have a cliche; drop it.

Another test is to ask yourself if you really know what you're talking about when you use the word, phrase, or image. What's a doornail? Is it dumber than a roofing nail? Quieter? Smarter than a finishing nail? A final test: do you get a sensation when you use the phrase, or are you only transmitting general impressions? Hard as nails doesn't trigger a feeling of hardness and durability. Cold as ice doesn't make you want to shiver. Does light as a feather make you feel ticklish, wispy barbs?

Poetry often generates a kind of cliche all its own, poetic diction, which is fancy, pompous, or ornate language that gets used and reused until it becomes simply dull. Words like o'er for over, ere for before, or thou for you are examples. So are such eighteenth-century elegant variations as finny tribe for fish. Don't use in a poem a word that you wouldn't use in speech - or at least weight your purpose carefully."

(From: "Writing Poems: Fourth Edition" Wallace & Boisseau, Eds.)

[This message has been edited by Gabriel (edited 09-02-2000).]

[Virginia Faith]

Thank you for the read!! I found it very insightful and completely worth my time to read.

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"Tuck your chin, you're going to get hurt, so expect it and be ready; you may as well see it coming."

[Donner]

Excellent stuff you found, Gabriel. It just about says it all.

[Kian Navaal]

Yes, thank you very much.

[Marya Evening]

That says it all!! Thanks so much Gabriel and here's some love back at ya...Marya

[Gabe1]

Originally posted by Marya Evening:
That says it all!! Thanks so much Gabriel and here's some love back at ya...Marya

*And the love just keeps on coming.

[edward ashpole]

Is "piffle" a cliche yet?
Just wondering (and laughing).

[Gabe1]

Originally posted by edward ashpole:
Is "piffle" a cliche yet?
Just wondering (and laughing).

*It's getting there.

[Athena]

Thanks, this will really help my writing!*earnest* Err, I can't promise that cliches won't stumble into my poetry but because of this excerpt I think I will become more aware of them... besides, what would you guyes do if there were no longer cliches to rid poems of and images to crank out of willing poeters. lol http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif Thanks Gabriel, ever insightful! -Athena

[This message has been edited by Athena (edited 09-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Athena (edited 09-26-2000).]

[depressoid]

When all the words used to describe something become cliche or obsolete, and one wonders if poetry itself will become extinct because of it, beware the Jabberwock!!! LOL

http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif

[Gabe1]

Originally posted by Athena:
besides, what would you guyes do if there were no longer cliches to rid poems of and images to crank out of willing poeters. lol

*Weep with joy.

[lounna]

Thank you, Gabriel. For the first time in my life I am trying to revise my poetry. I actually got over the juvenile concept that my writing is above reproach and reworking injures the original message. I'm sure you run across this often here. Cliches is one of my biggest problems and this will help freshen up some of my writing and put more of an original spin on it. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

lounna

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An eye for an eye only leads to more blindness.

[banality]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gabriel:

If you're thinking of the latter, you have a cliche; drop it.

... And if you drop us do we not fall??

[Harry Rutherford]

Why shouldn't we use vocabulary that we wouldn't use in everyday speech? Poetry is not everyday speech (unless you're a Shakespeare character).

If you enjoy the effects created by curious, interesting, or obscure vocabulary, why not use it. It can be challenging, or comic, or evocative to do so.

[I have a sneaking and certainly unhealthy affection for 'thou']

You make reference to the C18th tradition that got so overly referential, overworked, artificial and generally up its own arse. Fair enough; and English poetry was, at that moment, just about ready for the Romantics to come along and emphasise simplicity and naturalness. But if anything, surely we currently have the opposite problem; people think that any old bunch of vaguely associated thoughts needs only to be chopped up into approximate line lengths to become a poem.

Having said all that (sorry, you just happened to disturb the bee slumbering in my bonnet), I completely agree with the basic point about cliche...

[stray_elf]

Gabriel,

Good stuff, that was. I was a guest lecturer at a local highschool today, talking about writing craft, and cliche was one of the things I was knocking on these folks about. One of the ways I put it to them was, "If you've seen it or can imagine it on a Hallmark card or a TV commercial, chances are it's cliched." The worst part is, you usually don't realize it until someone else points it out...

which leads me to ...

lounna,

One of the big things I keep reminding myself is that poetry is trying to tell a message. If the things you write speak to you, but not to others, you need to change what you've written or the way you've presented it. It's hard at first, I agree, but after awhile you'll find people that provide valid thoughtful criticism and you'll recognize the improvements of their suggestions. There will, of course, always still be knuckleheads that don't get it. Ignore them.

Lastly,

Harry,

I agree about the language issue. I think it depends on your subject, your theme, and your audience, and one must find a balance between challanging the reader and conveying the message, but I think we limit our poetry when we limit our diction.

elf

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[insert appropriate quotation here]

[tygerlilly72]

thank you so much, Gabriel! this will certainly help me rid my poetry of such awful stuff as cliches (not to mention the abstractions!)... you are such a wonderful gentleman! thank you for all of your help!
love to you as well...
~lil~
p.s. i even printed this so i could have it with me next time i write! http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by tygerlilly72 (edited 11-08-2000).]

[Neophyte]

Originally posted by Athena:
Thanks, this will really help my writing!*earnest* Err, I can't promise that cliches won't stumble into my poetry but because of this excerpt I think I will become more aware of them... besides, what would you guyes do if there were no longer cliches to rid poems of and images to crank out of willing poeters. lol http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif Thanks Gabriel, ever insightful! -Athena

[This message has been edited by Athena (edited 09-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Athena (edited 09-26-2000).]

My thoughts exactly.

Thanks for the post, Gabriel! http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

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Heidi
music.jd.2b@justice.com
www.geocities.com/music_jd_2b/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/music_jd_2b/index.html)

[Neha]

Thanks for the useful hint on "cliches"
I understood what you meant by it and will try as far as possible to write what I feel
But I have a question...cliches do make a poem seem slightly impressive don't they?

[garyg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neha:


Thanks for the useful hint on "cliches"
I understood what you meant by it and will try as far as possible to write what I feel

**What does this mean?

But I have a question...cliches do make a poem seem slightly impressive don't they?

**No.
No.
Noo.
Noo.

[Nick Grover]

"Cold as ice doesn't make you want to shiver. "

Very good point, never thought of it like that

[M69BlondyJay]

I'm new at this and I never really thought about what they can actually do to a poem. Thanks for the help. I will try very hard to keep them out of my writing.

BlondyJay

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We all do what we can and it has to be good enough. If it isn't good enough it has to do.

The Dead Zone
Stephen King

[awilson]

Originally posted by Gabriel:
This is an excerpt from a writing book I stumbled across and I think it a fine discussion:

"Cliches- stale, timeworn too familiar words and phrases- are best avoided in favor of freshness. The language of poetry pays attention, and it is the nature of a cliche not to pay attention. Recently a newspaper carried this sentence: "I think we are enjoying the backlash of the moral decline that peaked in Watergate,' Dr. Weber said." Enjoying a lash of any kind seems unlikely; and the peak of a decline is language that isn't listening to itself at all.

You can test for a cliche by asking yourself whether the word, phrase, or image you're using is particular or generic. If you say, "She's always there for me," where is there? When you need support and companionship, wouldn't you rather have her here than there? If you're writing about a rainbow, do you see a real rainbow with all its translucence, transience, and tenuousness? No rainbow looks exactly like another. Or do you see the graphic artist's generic sentimental symbol: neat little arches lined up according to the spectrum, violet to blue, flat colors? If you're thinking of the latter, you have a cliche; drop it.

Another test is to ask yourself if you really know what you're talking about when you use the word, phrase, or image. What's a doornail? Is it dumber than a roofing nail? Quieter? Smarter than a finishing nail? A final test: do you get a sensation when you use the phrase, or are you only transmitting general impressions? Hard as nails doesn't trigger a feeling of hardness and durability. Cold as ice doesn't make you want to shiver. Does light as a feather make you feel ticklish, wispy barbs?

Poetry often generates a kind of cliche all its own, poetic diction, which is fancy, pompous, or ornate language that gets used and reused until it becomes simply dull. Words like o'er for over, ere for before, or thou for you are examples. So are such eighteenth-century elegant variations as finny tribe for fish. Don't use in a poem a word that you wouldn't use in speech - or at least weight your purpose carefully."

(From: "Writing Poems: Fourth Edition" Wallace & Boisseau, Eds.)

[This message has been edited by Gabriel (edited 09-02-2000).]


More please!! Information like this is very helpful for those of us that are still learning. Cliche's are hard to get around. You have given some helpful tests that I will use.

[Wordsworth Whelp]

I dug up this old topic (hehe, cliche, see?) because I have noticed that cliches are among the most frequently noted thing in critiques. I believe that I am beginning to develop the sensitivity of many posters here to their occasional use. However, the posts on the subject of cliches have left me very unfulfilled. To explore it in another way, I'm actually going to mention something that I wrote and posted. I hope that this will be seen for the purpose of inquiry and not pouting or self-indulgence.

I wanted to explore whether cliches could be used to signal a deeper meaning to a poem, and point the reader in directions that they might otherwise avoid. To do so, I wrote "Sparrow's Song." It was a poetic attempt at "Animal Farm" or the "Chronicles of Narnia." (which, as most of us know, use childlike settings to explore politics and religion). It had many problems to it, so don't mistake my meaning. However, through a myriad of cliches I hoped that a deeper message could be focused upon and that the exploration of the purpose of the cliches would become a worthwhile pursuit. We are all artists here and I hope that this topic of art styles will be worthy of artistic consideration. Are cliches a black-and-white subject? Should we consider the poet's meaning in the use of cliches? If one chooses to use them, even sporadically, what is the best way to signal to a reader that they are intentional?

Or perhaps when one shrugs off the title of "poetaster", and rises to the level of "poet laureate", only then he is free to be seen as using cliches as art and intention. I'm very curious to hear what people think though.

-Tim (who really should get rid of his penname)-

[This message has been edited by Wordsworth Whelp (edited 04-26-2001).]

[&*(9)%46#$&]

Originally posted by Wordsworth Whelp:

...through a myriad of cliches I hoped that a deeper message could be focused upon and that the exploration of the purpose of the cliches would become a worthwhile pursuit. We are all artists here and I hope that this topic of art styles will be worthy of artistic consideration. Are cliches a black-and-white subject? Should we consider the poet's meaning in the use of cliches? If one chooses to use them, even sporadically, what is the best way to signal to a reader that they are intentional?

Or perhaps when one shrugs off the title of "poetaster", and rises to the level of "poet laureate", only then he is free to be seen as using cliches as art and intention. I'm very curious to hear what people think though.

-Tim (who really should get rid of his penname)-

[This message has been edited by Wordsworth Whelp (edited 04-26-2001).]

*** Tim,
Writers who have the skill and the knowledge
to break or invert the "rules" of good writing are often rewarded and praised (Sadly, some are not rewarded or praised until after many years of neglect; some not
until after their deaths.)

However,the very fact that you ask the questions that you do, to me, is an indication that you are not ready to use a "myriad of cliches" to "focus attention on deeper message."

But, perhaps, one day you will be ready.
But until that day comes, keep writing and reading and whenever you read a famous/professional/published writer who
ignores,flaunts, disregards, spits on the
"rules" of writing. Don't think, "If he/she
can get away with it why can't I?" Think,
"How and Why is this case?"