Nasty criticism

[Johan]

I'm rather new at this forum, but this is my impression of a part of the criticism that goes on here.

I received some nasty criticism when I posted my first poem on this site, and I made a remark that it was rather unnecessary of the ctitic to have made a particular comment. The second time I read the guidelines I noticed I should have thanked him. Well maybe I should, but just because it is true that a poem stinks worse than a pile of dung, should it really be encoraged in the guidelines to make such remarks? It's not encouraged per se, but that's how it comes out. It's repeatedly said in guidelines and posts by moderators how these remarks should be welcomed. Usually these remarks, that I have seen, come with a lot of good, constructive criticism too. And maybe the critic really thought the poem so loathsome that he must discourage the author from writing further, but is that the PFFA policy?

My feelings wouldn't be hurt if someone made a nasty remark on my poetry now. But since it has been included in the guidelines that one should welcome these remarks, there must have been hurt feelings before. Is it right to let the critics roam so freely then? I'm sure this place wasn't meant for superior poets/critics to make fun of amateurs or where they can snap at their free will to release some tension.

Maybe I am being too sensitive, maybe you think this forum is working really well and don't need any modifications, maybe everyone is happy. I still felt that since there was a place I could word my opinion, why not do it?

That said, I'd like to say thanks for all the constructive criticism I've received, all the wonderful poems I've been able to read, and I'm looking forward to more! Bless this place, it's really interesting.

Regards,
Johan

[JohnBoddie]

Johan,

If somebody responds to your poem with a "pile of dung" remark and gives no reason why he or she feels that way, all you need to do is note that the poem caused a strong negative feeling in one reader. You haven't been given any information about what it was in the poem that caused the reaction, so you may as well thank the reviewer for taking the itme to comment and move on.

The same holds true if you get a comment that says, "I really liked this." and doesn't give a reason.

It is useful for an author to know if there are strong negative or positive reactions to what was written, but it's more useful to understand what it was that triggered the reactions.

On any poetry workshop board, there will usually be an active thread that talks about the tone of comments by reviewers. The gist of the comments is invariably, "I don't mind the criticism, but why can't it be done in a 'constructive' manner?"

Whether or not critique is constructive depends on how the author uses it, not on the manner in which it's phrased.

You never have to thank the reviewer for the content of his or her remarks (although you may if you find them helpful), but you should always thank the reviewer for taking the time to read and comment.

Posts of this nature should probably be posted to "Gripes".

JB

[Johan]

JB, thank you for answering, and moving this to the correct board.

My problem was not with critics who just say "this sucks" and nothing more, I would ignore them. But where does the need to throw in nasty remarks in an otherwise helpful critical reply come from? That's what "gripes" me, but maybe it's just me.

Johan

[JohnBoddie]

Johan,

If the nasty remarks appear in an otherwise detailed review, you should take that as a sign that the reviewer is very displeased with your work and is offering you an honest (as opposed to "sugar coated") reaction. This is useful information for an author because the author doesn't need to wonder, "How did he really feel about the poem?"

JB

[River Not]

Originally posted by Johan:
I received some nasty criticism when I posted my first poem on this site, and I made a remark that it was rather unnecessary of the ctitic to have made a particular comment.


Johan,


I’m assuming this is in regards to my comment on your poem “Dismal Euphony”:

“...and that the entire scene is as unoriginal as a ‘new’ item on the menu at a restaurant that only serves hamburgers.”

However, I don’t know for certain if this is the comment in question, but I do know that you expressed dislike to it.

I assure you though, this was far from a nasty remark - in my opinion. I mean, heck, that was my first and last time to ever use that simile. And I produced it after reading your poem, which would suggest to me that your poem inspired me to think it. Well, I’m sorry if the humor didn’t translate; in all honesty I was hoping you’d at least giggle, and consider it a valid opinion on account that we (to a certain extent) share the same musical tastes.

About the tone: welcome to the poetry free for all. Honesty is encouraged here; provided, I think, that the criticism doesn’t speculate on anything but the poem itself - in the poetry forums. What I mean is that I didn’t say your life and the way you live it sucks, just that the way you’re expressing it is still ‘unoriginal.’

That said, the ‘watering hole’ forum is a whole different ball game (i think).

[Johan]

Crowbowsow,

Yes it was your comment I was thinking about. It wasn't very bad at all, in fact, but it gave me something to stand on. I don't mind it at all now, especially not with some distance to it. But I have seen much worse, and as I said, the fact that the guidelines have included a comment on this topic suggests to me that there might be too much of this going on.

The fact that you pointed out your remark was far from nasty makes it sound as if you agree there are other, nasty, ones.

Just because you can express just what you feel doesn't mean you should. I don't mean you personally.

So, I don't have any gripe with you. Your criticism was helpful and I would like it in the future too. I was just wording a concern for the forum in general. May be presumptuous of me, but I'm used to being a moderator/operator so please excuse me http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

[Harry Rutherford]

Johan -
the bias is intentionally maintained in favour of honest (and therefore useful) criticism. This policy is announced all over the site, including in the Posting Guidelines, so anyone who posts a poem should be aware of what they are letting themselves in for.

As for nasty comments - if someone posts a very bad poem in a critical forum, they need to know that it's bad if they're ever going to improve. I don't know a way of saying "this poem is trite, packed with abstractions and clichés, and has nothing to interest the reader" which isn't going to sting a little. But just maybe, the 'poet' will learn from it and go on to better things.

Harry

[Johan]

Harry,

This policy is announced all over the site, including in the Posting Guidelines

Exactly. My concern was that this would be a vicious circle.
1) A makes a nasty remark about B's poem
2) B complains
3) Mods say it's okay to do as A
4) More people will do as A because it's been deemed "ok" by the mods
5) You got the drift already.

I don't know a way of saying "this poem is trite, packed with abstractions and clichés, and has nothing to interest the reader" which isn't going to sting a little.

But it's not hard to do it without colourful language.

I won't push on this topic, I'm just offering another view... and of course I'll play by the rules as they are.

[River Not]

Originally posted by Johan:
The fact that you pointed out your remark was far from nasty makes it sound as if you agree there are other, nasty, ones.


it means I've done more than my share bashing. Shit, It comes with criticality. When I learn more about poetry...

[Howard Miller]

Except that you are pushing.

The policy is what it is in order to allow completely honest statements about specific pieces of work. How the critter chooses to state his point and what language he uses will vary from individual to individual. The emphasis is on the honesty of the evaluation, not the politeness or lack of it which is employed. Any other policy would serve to inhibit the free expression of reactions to pieces of work.

On the other hand, as the "Posting Guidelines" make absolutely clear, when the writer responds to comments, it is politeness which matters, not the free expression of his opinion of the critiquer for the simple reason that the writer's opinions of the critique or the critiquer are of no value to the poem.

In short, PFFA is about the work and everything that furthers that purpose is allowed. Those things which don't, such as the writer himself, are irrelevant and are minimized or prohibited altogether.

Not everyone can adapt to the kind of free exchange permitted here; from your reiterated comments, you may well be such an individual. If you continue to experience discomfort here, you might best serve yourself by finding another board.

However, whether you choose to remain or leave, the policies and practices here will not be changed. They have been repeatedly shown to be highly effective, and neither your nor anyone else's discomfort will lead to their being changed. You have to adapt to the policies and practices of the board; it's not the responsibility of the board to adapt to your individual preferences.

Clear enough?


Howard

[This message has been edited by Howard Miller (edited 03-11-2002).]

[Johan]

Howard,

It is clear to me. I am not discomfortable. As I said I was just offering my p.o.v. Thank you for the "official answer", it helps me get a better understanding of how this place works (and yes, I have read the guidelines several times).