Pros and beginners alike, what is your opinion?

[butterfliesblossom]

I think this is a wonderfully educational site, (now that I have kissed up http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/wink.gif the rest of this is going to sound defensive. Especially since my first poem really "bombed out", but if you will check, you may notice my first posting (prior to the poem) even raised this question. So I hope I am in the right forum.

My question pertains to wanting poetry to be understood by more than just a few well versed and knowledgeable poetry masters. I know poetry is an art, and at the rate I am going I may never be a true poet by the definition that many (if not all of you ascribe to); but I feel that there may be some day a market for poems that the common person could understand. Take the card industry. It is a booming business using little rhyming poems that convey feelings and concerns and the general public is "eating it up".

Do I want to be famous. No, I want to be understood.

By experiment, I took one of my bad poems, and two poems from famous published poets to work one day and had them read by several co-workers. Guess which one they understood and could relate to?

I am wondering since this site allows for experimental poems, perhaps another forum could be developed for more common "ditties" (I believe) that is how I have heard them referred to.

Maybe a forum that will offer critiquing such as "Does the poem flow smoothly?" Are the "line breaks in the right places?" "How's the grammar" Are the images something perhaps the common public can understand? Suggestions on improving the poetry by using a particular metaphor or a different image.

I have a feeling that if any of you pro's read this, you will become defensive about your art. Rightfully so, but could you not see that the general public may one day seek out poetry that they can easily relate to. I will give you the argument that maybe I am just not very refine. Ok, I agree. Some of your images are very difficult for me to understand. I would have to spend hours trying to decipher many of the better poems. I don't want to do a puzzle, I want to be able to relate to the poetry. But conduct the test for yourself, see what your neighbors can understand best. Take one of your poems versus one of Ruth Harms Calkins poem. (spiritual poet that uses simple images, but very powerful on relating feelings) to your neighbors see which they understand best.

As far as my ego goes, this is my position:
1) (This is not a direct quote) Emily Dickinson wrote, because she had to write..... "Her style was unhampered, intense and original for it's time."

2) Harry Chapin in his song Mr. Tanner: "Music was his life, it was not his livelihood. And it made him feel so happy, and it made him feel so good." "He sang from his heart, and He sang from his soul. He did not know how well he sang, it just made him whole."

I write because I have to write. I am just hoping this site could be the site the will help me to improve what the type of poetry I do write. This forum asks for suggestions. What about it? I do still want to learn the art of poetry to, but I think that will come only with years of hard work. (and I don't necessarily want to give up relating to the common reader).

<<<<just read Mr. Ed's post, this could have probably been added to his thread.>>>


[This message has been edited by butterfliesblossom (edited 03-19-2002).]

[Howard Miller]

To answer briefly, what you're talking about is poetry "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator (and that's pretty far down, given the current state of education). Poetry reduced to that level produces nothing except pretty but largely meaningless (because false) pictures and simplistic "morals" which are nothing more than re-re-rehashed clichés of the most mindnumbing and thoughtless sort.

In painting, this reductionism has led to such things as the elevation of the work of Thomas Kinkade (sp.?), the "Painter of Light," to a frenzied height of mass popularity. Those who "don't know art but know what they like" love his junk. Unfortunately, what they find there comes to represent for them the epitome of "art," and is unlikely ever to lead anyone to a genuine appreciation of real art or of the skill and craft that is an inseparable element of genuine artistic accomplishment. You might wish to read the "Bukowski" thread in "Voyage of Discovery" for more on this particular subject and for a discussion of why poor art is misleading and counterproductive, even destructive.

Is this position a snobbish, elitist one? Damn straight it is. Will PFFA ever descend to fostering that kind of poor work? Not if those who care about poetry and about PFFA have anything to say about it. Precisely the opposite. That's part of the reason that the point has been made here repeatedly that PFFA isn't for everyone and doesn't attempt to be.


Howard, who has a great deal more to say on the subject but who has to go explain the proper use of metaphors to poetry students at the moment

[This message has been edited by Howard Miller (edited 03-19-2002).]

[Clive2]

Howard is dead right, but allow me to add something to what he said.

You know what? Poetry that is both easily understandable AND meets the criteria for genuine poetry actually exists!

Check out the work of Wendy Cope, Philip Larkin, John Betjeman, Paul Durcan, Sophie Hannah, RS Gwynn, Tim Murphy, Dana Gioia...I could go on and on, but ALL of these poets write (or wrote, some of them are dead) poetry that I don't think ANYONE would have too much trouble "getting".

Clive

[garyg]

Re:

" I am wondering since this site allows for experimental poems,
perhaps another forum could be developed for more common
"ditties" (I believe) that is how I have heard them referred to."


**I thought that's what General Poetry was for.

[chrissyrparks]

Okay, you've heard from some pro's, now let's hear from a beginner...

Years ago, I wrote a poem for my Mother. She still carries it with her showing it to co-workers and friends. Most get teary eyed or choked up when they read it and that is a compliment to me. When I posted it here at PFFA, our helpful critters pointed out many flaws. In an effort to make my beloved poem better, I studied hard and posted a revision. The meter among other things was much better, but Mom hated the revision. I'm not done yet. Clive is right. And that is my goal, if it takes 100 revisions, someday I will write something that is real poetry and Mom and the ladies at the office can appreciate too. I truly believe it can be done!

Chrissy

[Scotty]

Hi there ButterfliesBlossom,

the problem, as I see it, seems to be in your inability to find a comfortable 'middle-ground' (and I mean that in the nicest possible way, OK?) Like you, I have a scrapbook of poetry that friends and family will gush over and tell me how great it is and sure, I appreciate that. I posted a few of my old pieces at this site and while they haven't been lambasted too severely, several good critiques have been offered as to how I could improve their technical merit.
I even showed an original then an 'improved' piece to friends and they, too, liked the original better.
So, what to do? For me, I accept that writing poetry, just like everything else in life, involves compromise of some sort and I've found my comfortable middle ground. I now have two books of poetry: one containing my older original work and one with the 'newer' stuff and there are times when it's great to sit back and compare the two.
Will I ever be a truly 'great' poet? Maybe, maybe not, but I treat poetry in the same manner as everything else I do in life - I accept that I have limitations but I try to learn something new each day (or at least each week) - I'm a better person for it overall.

Good luck,
Scotty

------------------
How do I set my laser printer to 'stun'? - author unknown

[cookala]

I haven't been writing poetry very long, maybe a year now, and I understand what you're saying, but I must wholeheartedly and emphatically agree with Howard. My feeling is that one should never ever settle for mediocre or common but strive instead to excel and elevate the art of poetry - whether it applies to your own writing or to doing critique on that of others. Great poetry can be easy to understand and convey real emotions and still be understandable to many "common" people- look at the works of Heaney, Larkin, Thom Gunn, Millay, Li-Young Lee to name just a few. I suppose we all have different standards of what we consider excellence, and what we are willing to settle for. But why settle for less? When you do, you do yourself and poetry a big disservice by settling for second best. I still have so much to learn about poetry - I'm the first to say that I have plenty of rough edges that need polishing yet - but even so I still try to strive for perfection by learning all that I can about this craft. I may never be a great poet, but hopefully someday I will be a better one than I am now.

[Ted]

I strongly encourage you to print this out, then put it away for a few years. During that time, learn about poetry; read lots of poetry, write lots of poetry and read tons of books on writing poetry. After those few years are up, pull this old paper out and have a good, harmless laugh at yourself.

Poetry is what it is. Learn the language of poetry, how and why it works, then try to make a contribution to it. Everything else is mental masturbation.

Ted

[This message has been edited by Tedward (edited 03-19-2002).]

[butterfliesblossom]

Oh Lord, am I in trouble! I LIKE Thomas Kinkade.

Howard: I can see your passion for the art of poetry, and I expected it and I commend it. I can also see that you are passionate about our educational system. Also commendable. Yet, to refer to the general public as "dumbed down" makes me cringe a little.

But I understand your position about not wanting to create a forum to foster want you feel would be inferior poetry that would rehash mindnumbing cliches.

No problem, I drop the request. I still plan to continue using this site to learn as much about poetry as possible.

Clive2:

Thank you for your suggestions. I am adding several of those poets to my reading list. First and foremost, I plan to read Mary Oliver's Poetry Handbook.

Sorry for my poor grammar, I tend to type these replies in a rush. During my lunch break or at 10:00 at night.

Garyg:

I need more feedback than the general forum could offer. General C&C offers higher levels of critiquing, which is what I need if I hope to improve at all as a poet. But in General C&C the critiquing is maybe a little too intensive, in my humble opinion. http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif Beginners should have some positive feedback as well. (Which is why I will continue to post my poems on both a General Forum site, and the General C&C site - the best of both worlds)

Yet, my post was not regarding any complaint I had with my critiques, I just wanted to discuss and discover if anyone was concerned about the possibility that the general public may seek out something different in poetry than what is being offered now.

Regarding poetry my only personal desire is to have my poems understood and I don't want to develop an elitist attitude. Yet, I do want to learn the true art of writing genuine poetry. (But if Thomas Kinkade sells????)


Chrissyparks:

That's what I want. I want someone to cry over my poetry. I want people to understand it. Maybe Xenomorph makes the best point. I am having trouble find a comfortable "middle-ground". Maybe, after studying the art of poetry, I will be able to write genuine poetry that anyone could understand as several of you have suggested would be possible.

My new goal is to learn to write good poetry, without adapting the elitist attitude.

Xenomorph:

Thank you for reminding me that the most important goal anyone could have is to try an learn something new everyday.


Cookala:

I am also adding your list of poets to my reading list. Surely, I can find one that will inspire me as much as Ruth Harms Calkin. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.


Tedward:

If I was an experience poet and decided to reply to a posted message similar to mine, I may have tried to convey the same message you did. Although, probably not using the same terminology. http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/biggrin.gif

I might take your suggestion for printing this out. I keep all my old writings, why not my old debates. Your post was in a way very encouraging; you gave me hope by just offering your opinion that you could still see me plugging away at learning to be a better poet years down the road.

[Howard Miller]

"But if Thomas Kinkade sells????"

No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
--H. L. Mencken

Financial success has nothing to do with esthetic success.

"My new goal is to learn to write good poetry, without adapting the elitist attitude."
Unfortunately, these goals are self-contradictory.


Howard

[Scavella]

But in General C&C the critiquing is maybe a little too intensive, in my humble opinion. Beginners should have some positive feedback as well.

I've said it before: for me, it's a question of respect.

It seems to me that often people confuse being nice to others in critiquing (which is what is usually connoted by "positive feedback") with respect. In fact, very often that niceness is really disrespectful; it indicates that the people who are offering it don't think very much of themselves, the craft, or of the other person. What they are trying to do is make the other person feel good. In the process, they make themselves feel good, which I suspect is more to the point.

My take on this subject is a lot like Rachel's "Word on Spiritual Poetry" in Spiritual. If something means a lot to you — be it your faith, your loved ones, your home, your life — then surely it should be treated with as much respect as possible. That means that if you choose to write about it, that writing should not consist of throwing the phrases you have heard over and over again onto the page (and what's the point? If you've heard them over and over again, why write them down again? Why not just quote the person who wrote them down the last time?), or using images that are well-worn, or yadda yadda.

In the same vein, if you choose to critique, then you should treat the craft that you hold dear with as much respect as possible, and not water your response down to make someone who is torturing that craft feel good.

Poetry is a craft. These days people seem to think that it is an instant art — that if you throw words and phrases down in a peculiar arrangement on the page, and those words and phrases evoke some reaction from other people (who may not be reacting to the poem at all but to the gesture), they've written poetry. They haven't. The purpose of PFFA is to help people who do want to write poems understand the difference between words oddly arranged on the page and poems.

I find that the things that mean the most to me are the hardest to write honestly about. They take work and frustration and struggle because they are so important. If I ever succeed in writing a poem about them, I will be happy; most of the time what I write doesn't do them justice.

I'm afraid I don't see this topic in terms of elitism and populism. I don't really even see it in terms of intelligence and dumbing down. I see it more in terms of pride in one's work and respect for the craft with which one chooses to express oneself. If I want to express myself, I don't see much value in using someone else's words or ideas. I also don't see much value in offering positive feedback to a writer who has done nothing more than cut and paste ideas and words into a new arrangement.

Cheers

Scavella

[This message has been edited by Scavella1 (edited 03-20-2002).]

[J. Fish]

"My new goal is to learn to write good poetry, without adapting the elitist attitude."
Unfortunately, these goals are self-contradictory.


Not at all true. You're confusing elitism with intelligence (both of you).

[debi z]

'Take the card industry. It is a booming business using little rhyming poems that convey feelings and concerns and the general public is "eating it up". '

I always wanted to have a generic greeting-card company. Generic Cards for Every Occasion.

On the Occasion of: Write your own occasion here.

when you opened the cards you would read:

'what the other cards say'.

Then there is my Hellmark Card.

On the Occasion of the Anniversary of Our Divorce.

when you opened this one up you would read:

Just thought I'd drop you a line
to let you know that I am fine
and suffer no regret at all,
though I do wonder from time to time
is your penis still so small?

debi z

[sweetums]

[This message has been edited by sweetums (edited 03-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sweetums (edited 03-20-2002).]

[butterfliesblossom]

Howard: Since you feel my goals are contradictory; let's just say I want to learn to write good poetry, and then at that time, other goals can be set.

Scavella1:
Anybody can find one positive response to someone. If my poem is totally "trashed" by the critics. I can still say thank you for taking the time to critique this piece.

Using my effort as an example, Here would be what I would consider a few possible positive comments, on my 2nd revision. I can see that you made an effort to correct the abstraction problem from your first draft; yet, you just replaced those abstractions, with other forms of abstractions or with cliches.... [and then offer a concrete example]
Or, I can see you are new at writing poetry, I hope the following suggestions will help.
Politeness, I guess is what I was expecting. But, I wasn't planning on dropping out because my critics were harsh. I was just disappointed. No crime in being harsh, if you feel that is the only way to teach good poetry.

J.Fish,
<<<You're confusing elitism with intelligence (both of you).>>>
I am not confusing the two. Maybe, I am a very poor poet. But, being able to write or read poetry, is not a good measure in defining the intelligence of a person. A person could be very intelligent; yet, not comprehend the art of poetry.
I am a bookkeeper; I could probably balance, post, and do financial forms a great deal better than you. That doesn't make me more intelligent than you, does it?

Debi:
I know you were probably trying to be
humorous to diffuse the situation, but I took it as direct sarcasm regarding my suggestion.
So in defense, that is not at all the type of poetry I was talking about.

But the best of luck should you decide to open your own line of greeting cards. General Public likes humor as well. I especially like the one about divorce.


[This message has been edited by butterfliesblossom (edited 03-20-2002).]

[JohnBoddie]

If you are looking for supportive comments to "poems that can be appreciated by regular people" and you find that "General" or "General C&C" do not satisfy your needs, you are at the wrong site.

If you'd like us to, we will be happy to recommend alternatives that may be more suitable for your goals.

From your original post and subsequent comments, it sounds to me as if you are very unclear about what you want to do with your poetry. Why not stick with "General" until you sort out what you really want.

JB

[Howard Miller]

"You're confusing elitism with intelligence (both of you)."

Absolutely not. One can easily have the intelligence to understand what is required to create good poetry and even to acquire those skills without choosing to employ that intelligence and those skills to do so. Robert W. Service seems to me a good example in poetry; Thomas Kinkade in painting would be another; Liberace in classical music would be a third.


Howard

[Donner]

It always seems to come down to this: the tenor of the comments.

Like it or not, you cannot dictate the tone of someone's comments. When you post here (for free I might add) you take what you get. Some will be polite in how they respond, some will not. Some will survive, some will not. That's the reality.

This point has been hashed over ad nauseum. PFFA is what it is and no changes are scheduled for the forseeable future. My best advice on the subject is be an example--comment the way you would like your work to be commented upon and go about your business.

Donner

[fire_poetuk]

Hi butterflies, I would just like to say that being new to poetry I think I know what you are going on about...but for me the advice I get in here is not always what I want to hear,but I take it on board and sometimes I learn...sometimes the advice doesnt work for me personally so I leave it and thats what you have to do.
One last thing I think it was clive who mentioned some poets to read, the one on his list you must read is Wendy Cope.
All the best, and keep writing

------------------

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm a pro, in my opinion.

Rachel

Oh, wait -- you're talking about poetry, aren't you? Forget I said anything.

[butterfliesblossom]

Donner, your solution seems to be the most practical. Thank you.

To Everyone else: I reread this entire thread, and I admit as it progressed I became more and more defensive. Criticizing the critiquers was not my original intent. I apologize.

I think that because the suggestion about critiquers being more positive has been rehashed so many times, it has become a sore spot. But please remember, I have only suggested it once.

And despite my debate, I DO WANT TO LEARN GOOD POETRY. I believe this site is going to be very educational for me.

Just so everyone knows my true position, I feel that about half of those who critiqued my first poem and revision were very polite. The other half although I felt they were more blunt and harsh, they were never rude. And from all of them, I have learned something. (Am I backpedaling; somewhat, because I have come to realize I was too defensive)

In response to JohnBoddie, I plan to do a lot of reading before I post any other poems. (I need to learn to be able to recognize clichés and abstractions before attempting another revision.) When I do post my next poem, I will probably straddle the forums as I mentioned earlier. I need the critiques to learn, but it doesn't hurt to get a little bit of a ego booster that the novice in the general forum is more likely to give me. (I am not afraid to admit it).

To Fire_Poetuck, Wendy Cope will be the first poet I will read.
Now, I am going to spend the rest of the week catching up on critiques that I owe. (Because of the second revision, I owe four in General, one in prose, and maybe one in spiritual.) Since I don't know much about poetry, all I can offer in critiquing is effort. I will put my best effort forward.





[This message has been edited by butterfliesblossom (edited 03-21-2002).]

[Clive2]

butterflies - I am always keen to spread the word about Wendy Cope, being one of her biggest fans, so here are a couple of links to poems of hers on the Net: -

Engineers' Corner (http://web.mit.edu/ashah/www/engineer.html)

Strugnell's Rubaiyat (http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/587.html)

30th December (http://www.aretemagazine.com/2000/issueone/wendycope.html)

Giving Up Smoking (http://pub33.ezboard.com/fthebigbluebubblefrm6.showMessage?topicID=23.topic)

Flowers (http://www.grg5.asn-wien.ac.at/lovepoems/Cope/Cope%20poem.htm)

Read and enjoy. She really is marvelous.

[J. Fish]

"My new goal is to learn to write good poetry, without adapting the elitist attitude."
Unfortunately, these goals are self-contradictory.

Not at all true. You're confusing elitism with intelligence (both of you).


Howard,

My point was that you were suggesting good poetry can only possibly come from an elitist attitude. This would seem to be patently untrue, considering the number of great poets who wrote specifically in order to be understood by large audiences. In fact, it seems more true that poor poetry is written by those who are writing for an "elite", the self-indulgence of beatnik poetry, for instance, as well as most adolescent poetry (for an elite of one).

Although Eliot might have argued that effective poetry can only be written for an elite, he was as wrong about that as he was about a huge number of other things, as Larkin, Hughes and Heaney after him (as well as many others) have shown. While good poetry may only be bought by a minority (and the sales figures for "The Birthday Letters" and Heaney's "Beowulf" would argue against that)these don't necessarily constitute, nor does the poet have to see them as, an elite.

I was suggesting that yourself and B. had confused the demand for intelligence (poetic intelligence at the very least) in poetry as elitism. I still think she was; if you weren't, I apologise. You weren't confused, just wrong.

cheers

joe.

[This message has been edited by J. Fish (edited 03-21-2002).]

[butterfliesblossom]

Clive2: Thank you for the links.

JFish: Your first post was too condensed for me to follow your thought patterns, and I misconstrued your message. I believe your second post expounded on your position better. Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.