(im)practical experiments in poetry

[rikroots]

While critiquing some poems in the Experimental Forum, one of my victims responded with a good question: "what type of poems do fit into this category? I've seen a lot of 'cummingsesque' pieces, so I know that fits, but what else?"

Now, I've got a strong feeling at the top of my stomach that the original purpose of Experimental was to draw our more "inventive" participants - for instance those who think four asterisks, an exclamation and a carriage return repeated over 14 lines makes a significant poetical statement - away from the other forums. There is probably some validity in this, as it offers these poets a place to justify their poetry, cuts down the number of debates and flames along the lines of "how dare you say my ascii art is not poetry", and generally makes for a tidier poetry board.

But experimental poetry is, to my mind, much more than a ghetto for the extreme. And I think it is important that participants are made aware of this fact. We could do this by including a thread in Experimental along the lines of the "what is spiritual poetry" thread in the Spiritual Forum. So if I start with a few ramblings, perhaps others can contribute their thoughts and perhaps, in the best traditions of committee poetry, we might be able to cobble together some guidance on what we mean by experimental poetry.

OK, so here goes ...

Most poems ever written are similar in format, style and word choice to the poetry fashionable at the time it was written. Poetry from different times and places can be thought of as schools or movements.

But change does occur. And when it occurs, it can happen very quickly. A group of poets might come together and start experimenting with their poetry, pushing the form and structure to accommodate new ideas from abroad, or to embrace a developing philosophy. We can consider the work of these poets, in the first few months and years of their adventure, to be experimental poems. The poets who first adapted the sonnet form to fit the English language were the experimental poets of their day. Similarly, some of the work of Yeats, Frost, Pound, Eliot, Stephens and Williams - poets whose works now form the bedrock of the Modernist movement - must be seen as experimental for its day.

Today's poetry scene is a flux of Modernist and Postmodernist, with a resurgent interest in new formalism and more traditional forms of poetry impacting on the internet poetry scene. So how can we define experimental poetry - by definition different from the norm - when the scene appears to be so fragmented? The artistic movements which helped to forge Modernism - symbolism, realism, romanticism - are now part of the mainstream culture. And the tenets of Postmodernism - populist, groundless, formless, iconoclastic - offers no bulk to react against.

But I would argue that there are at least two areas where significant experimental poetry can - is - being produced.

The first is based on theory - in particular the theories arising from ongoing scientific studies on the human brain, language processing, and the wider social context of language. This is not the Postmodernist Language school of poetry.

The second area of experimental poetry is based on form - in particular the new formats now becoming available thanks to advances in information technology: hypertext poetry; experiments with font, layout and colour; animating text and graphics in products such as shockwave and java; and even looking at the production methods of today's poetry - is there poetry in a poetrybot which produces hallmark style verse, or is the real poetry in the code and database which operate and support the poetrybot?

This is a fairly shallow overview about what we can - should - expect from modern experimental poetry. An important point to remember is that experimental poetry demands a different relationship between poets and their readers. The poet is loosening his/her commitment to entertain and guide their readers, in pursuit of new ways of expressing and demonstrating their work, and this requires a commensurate commitment from the reader to engage with both the piece and the theories, philosophies and culture within which the work is being constructed. This often means a lot more patience and research on the reader's part, in the hope that the poet doesn't lead them into an oubliette of wasted effort and time.

I will conclude by listing what I do not consider to be experimental poetry:

- "I've never tried writing Haiku before, so I thought I'd post my first haiku in Experimental" - No. Try posting it in General. 10 lashes.

- anything containing typographical tricks such as l(oo)k or |bound| - no. Coming up to about a century out of date. Please try to keep up. 15 lashes.

- acrostics. I might be wrong, but I think these were popular in mediaeval times. 20 lashes.

- poor quality cryptic poems - often also known as "language poetry". So what. 50 lashes.

Rik, knee deep.

[JohnBoddie]

Rik,

I happen to like experimental poetry and my own preference is for work that chooses to focus on the language (as opposed to that which relies on visual effects).

How do we communicate?

What is language and how does it work? Can I write an effective poem in a language that does not exist? (Don't laugh, Tolkein did it.)

What is the act of reading? In what ways is the reader acted upon, and does understanding of this condition generate some sort of Heisenberg principle?

Let's face it, Rik. Most experiments fail. The problem I've had on those increasingly infrequent times I've looked at "Experimental" is that so little is attempted.

I think your introduction to experimental is a good start, and I encourage you to flesh it out.

It might be worthwhile to change the section header as well:

Experimental - This is where the envelope of "What is Poetry?" gets pushed. Do you have new ways of presenting language, form, images, or rhythm? Are you doing more than "recycled cummings?" If so, post here.

JB

[This message has been edited by JohnBoddie (edited 03-07-2002).]

[Harry Rutherford]

Rik -

I suppose as I'm moderating Experimental now, I should have an opinion on the subject (just my opinion - not PFFA policy)

I strongly sympathise with your comments. A lot of the poems in Experimental do seem to have no experimental qualities at all; I only leave them there on the basis that in the non-critical forums, my role is as referee rather than judge.

On the other hand, Experimental is one of the non-critical forums; so I don't expect the poems there to be particularly brilliant, or particularly cutting-edge.

I would however expect them to be something different from (a fairly conservatively defined) norm.

On that basis, the cummings-esque poems are 'experimental' in the sense that they distort the normal rules of punctuation. They may not do it very well; but then few of the poems in Love evoke the experience(s) of love very effectively.

More problematically, many of the poems posted are entirely standard free verse.


But, leaving aside my minimal expectations for poems in Experimental, what I would like to see there?

It's difficult to put my finger on, but I suppose it's comparable to conceptualism in the visual arts. I would like the poem to surprise me and make me think; above all it should show evidence of thought on the part of the writer. Thought about what poetry is, or how scansion works, or the possibilities of typography - but thought.

Another analogy would be science fiction. A lot of SF works not so much because of the traditional literary virtues, but because of the thought that has gone into it; the invention of a new society and technology. In the best SF, the other things (characterisation and plotting, for example) are there too; but often it works on the strength of its ideas.

Similarly, I would hope to see poetry in Experimental that shows evidence of time spent thinking.

Harry


[This message has been edited by Harry Rutherford (edited 03-07-2002).]

[David Mascellani]

Foreword to is 5

On the assumption that my technique is either complicated or original or both,the publishers have politely requested
me to write an introduction to this book.

At least my theory of technique,if I have one,is very far from original;nor is it complicated. I can express it in fifteen
words by quoting The Eternal Question And Answer of burlesk,viz. "Would you hit a woman with a child?--No,I'd hit
her with a brick." Like the burlesk comedian,I am abnormally fond of that precision which creates movement.

If a poet is anybody,he is somebody to whom things made matter very little--somebody who is obsessed by Making.
Like all obsessions,the Making obsession has disadvantages;for instance,my only interest in making money would be
to make it. Fortunately,however,I should prefer to make almost anything else,including locomotives and roses. It is
with roses and locomotives(not to mention acrobats Spring electricity Coney Island the 4th of July the eyes of mice
and Niagara Falls)that my"poems"are competing.

They are also competing with each other,with elephants,and with El Greco.

Ineluctable preoccupation with The Verb gives a poet one priceless advantage:whereas nonmakers must content
themselves with the merely undeniable fact that two times two is four,he rejoices in a purely irresistible truth(to be
found,in abbreviated costume,upon the title page of this present volume). E.E. CUMMINGS http://www.palace.net/~llama/poetry/is5.html


Finding another word for "experimental" / Lawrence Upton: http://www.heelstone.com/meridian/uptontheory/restless.htm

Methodological Difficulties in the Examination of Experimental Poetry: Clemente Padín: http://www.ubu.com/papers/padin_meth.html

EXPERIODDI(CYBER)CIST #: http://www.burningpress.org/va/exper/exper08.html#bas/one

New Writing Feature: Introduction to Postings from Britain by Caroline Bergvall: http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/however/v1_5_2001/current/new-writing/bergvall.html

Recent Experiments In Holopoetry And Computer Holopoetry: Eduardo Kac: http://www.ekac.org/recent.experiments.html

Archive for New Poetry Mandeville Special Collections Library, UC San Diego: http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/collects/anp.html

Interviews with Poets: http://www.interviews-with-poets.com/poetry-directory/poetry-contemporary.html

Interactive poems: intersign perspective for experimental poetry: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Lights/7323/philadelpho.html

strange and twisted: http://prolix.nu/strange/st_index.html

Spencer Selby's List of Experimental Poetry/Art Magazines: http://www.poetrypress.com/selby/

[rikroots]

John: thanks for the feedback, and the encouragement. I fully endorse the suggested change in the forum's description. We could even move on from the term "experimental", along the lines suggested in Upton's article - I quite like "Restless Research", or "Laboratory Poetry". Or how about "The Language Smithy"?

re effective poetry in a language that doesn't exist: www.kalieda.org/gevey (http://www.kalieda.org/gevey) - scary, huh?

Harry: I entirely agree with the points you make. Especially the point that the work should have had considerable thought put into its development, construction and presentation. Thanks for the contribution.

David: thank you for some excellent links - the articles by Upton, Bergvall, Kac and Padin should be required reading before anyone posts or comments in the Forum. Strange and twisted is an very good example of tying the intent of a piece directly to its presentation on the screen. And the Mandeville Library archive, BTL website and Selby links are a useful set of resources for anyone looking to explore the crushing edge of 21st century poetry.

The only link I wasn't sure about was Basinski, which seemed to be rehashing the postmodern populism arguments. Others may disagree with me.

An additional thought I had subsequent to starting this thread is that any Forum guidelines should emphasise the possibilities for interactiveness both between the reader/viewer and the finished poem, and the reader/viewer and poet during the creation process. This is something I am trying to achieve (in a very limited fashion) with some of the work on my website - the Facet series of poems invites the reader to select their own route through the poems, with several predefined routes on offer, while my latest series will have feedback mechanisms built in once I have coded and uploaded the pages.

So OK, does anyone else have a view on "Experimental" poetry?

Rik

[David Mascellani]

Rik,
Could I please have a link to your website?
my email address is davidmascellani@hotmail.com
Thanks

[rikroots]

Originally posted by David Mascellani:
Rik,
Could I please have a link to your website?
my email address is davidmascellani@hotmail.com
Thanks
www.kalieda.org (http://www.kalieda.org) - wear tinfoil headgear

Rik, bemused

[Dunc]

On the general topic of Fun with Language, no doubt you've already come across the Voynich Manuscript?

And if you haven't read the partial translation of Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel by Sir Thomas Urquhart (1611-1660) then you should; but here I mention his wonderful Logopandekteision.

One day I must learn how to insert click-on net addresses into posts. But material on both Voynich and Logopandekteision are on the net. Regards / Dunc

[rikroots]

Originally posted by Dunc McReil:
On the general topic of Fun with Language, no doubt you've already come across the Voynich Manuscript?
www.crystalinks.com/voynich.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/voynich.html)

And if you haven't read the partial translation of Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel by Sir Thomas Urquhart (1611-1660) then you should; but here I mention his wonderful Logopandekteision.
www.slainte.org.uk/Scotauth/urquhdsw.htm (http://www.slainte.org.uk/Scotauth/urquhdsw.htm)

One day I must learn how to insert click-on net addresses into posts. But material on both Voynich and Logopandekteision are on the net. Regards / Dunc

Just copy and paste the website address into the little typy window thingy - it works best when you don't include the http:// in front of the webaddress.


One of the weirdest 19th century constructed languages must be Sol-Re-Sol, a language based on the seven notes of conventional western music (or seven phonemes, or seven colours, etc). One person who tried learning it said it was a revalation to find out that the first four notes of Beethoven's Fifth were actually saying "Wednesday" to him. www.amristar.com.au/~hutch/solresol/ (http://www.amristar.com.au/~hutch/solresol/)

Finally, for those interested in constructed languages, Richard Kennaway's list is an essential link - www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/conlang.html (http://www.sys.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/conlang.html) . The quality of the poems in these languages (if any have been written by the conlanger) tends to be very uninteresting. I believe there was a project to translate Shakespeare's Hamlet into Klingon, but don't know how far that progressed.

Rik

[Howard Miller]

Hamlet must have come off as a wuss in Klingon. Titus Andronicus, on the other hand . . . .


Howard

[Dunc]

Thanks for that, Rik.

Sol-Re-Sol is a real grabber. Imagine the poetic possibilities - allusions to Beethoven, Browning, the Stones, Spenser, Stockhausen and Bradbury in one artful pun!

(What's the name and author of that SF short story where the Terran hero, out of enlightened self-interest, saves the world he's visiting by out-negotiating the very powerful Nasties who've arrived on one of their cyclic stoush-visits to the indigenes? The Nasty language contains no verbs and he had to use a largely inadequate translato-program of their tongue because almost no one had heard of them. The AllNoun tongue mentioned in your fourth link put me in mind of them.)

Regards / Dunc

[rikroots]

As promised, some revised text which I hope will form a guidance note
for anyone interested in posting work to the Experimental Forum.

Any last comments, anyone?


Welcome to the Experimental Forum. This is where the envelope of
"What is Poetry?" gets pushed. Do you have new ways of presenting
language, form, images, or rhythm? Are you doing more than "recycled
cummings?" If so, post here.

But what do we mean by "experimental" poetry? Let's answer that
question with some more questions:

- How do we communicate? For what purpose?

- What is language and how does it work?

- What is the act of reading? How and why do words and images trigger
emotional responses in the reader?

- Where do the boundaries exist between poetry and painting? Poetry
and video? Poetry and performance? Poetry and architecture?

- How will new technologies help modern poetry evolve?

These are the type of questions which experimental poets are trying
to answer through their work. The following links lead to articles and
discussions on experimental poetry published on other websites:

Finding another word for "experimental" - Lawrence Upton: http://www.heelstone.com/meridian/uptontheory/restless.htm

Methodological Difficulties in the Examination of Experimental Poetry - Clemente Padín: http://www.ubu.com/papers/padin_meth.html

New Writing Feature: Introduction to Postings from Britain - Caroline Bergvall: http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/however/v1_5_2001/current/new-writing/bergvall.html

Recent Experiments In Holopoetry And Computer Holopoetry - Eduardo Kac: http://www.ekac.org/recent.experiments.html

Experimental poetry is not a modern concept. I would argue that for
as long as people have been writing poetry, there have been a few
people writing poems which challenged accepted standards and helped
the art to evolve.

Because change does occur. And when it occurs, it can happen very
quickly. A group of poets might come together and start experimenting
with their poetry, pushing the form and structure to accommodate new
ideas from abroad, or to embrace a developing philosophy. We can
consider the work of these poets, in the first few months and years of
their adventure, to be experimental poems. The poets who first adapted
the sonnet form to fit the English language were the experimental
poets of their day. Similarly, some of the work of Yeats, Frost,
Pound, Eliot, Stephens and Williams - poets whose works now form the
bedrock of the Modernist movement - must be seen as experimental for
its day.

Today's poetry scene is a flux of Modernist and Postmodernist, with a
resurgent interest in new formalism and more traditional forms of
poetry impacting on the internet poetry scene. So how can we define
today's experimental poetry when the scene appears to be so
fragmented? The artistic movements which helped to forge Modernism -
symbolism, realism, romanticism - are now part of the mainstream
culture. And the tenets of Postmodernism - populist, groundless,
formless, iconoclastic - offers no bulk to react against.

It is here that the five questions posed above come into play. If
your poems address any of those questions, then they have a welcome
home in the Experimental Forum.

There are some things to keep in mind when posting your poems to the
Experimental Forum:

- Whereas poems posted to any of the other forums in PFFA are
expected to centre almost entirely on the reader's response to the
work, here there is a more even division of work between the author
and the reader. To understand a poem, the reader will need to put in
some work to understand the culture and philosophy which set the terms
of reference within which the poem performs. However, this is not a
free ticket for the poet to say: "My poem works. You just don't
understand!" When you post a poem for critical feedback in this Forum,
you should be prepared to engage with the comments you get back, even
to the extent of explaining what you were trying to achieve with the
piece and how you were trying to achieve it.

- Experimental poetry is not synonymous with "easy" poetry. If your
cat walks across the keyboard, and you post the result as an example
of "found feline poetry", expect to be challenged. If the reader or
critic is putting a lot of time and effort into trying to understand
your poem, then it is only reasonable for them to expect you to have
put in a massive amount of time in creating and developing the piece.
If you can justify the cat poem in terms of behavioural science and
the interaction between the feral world and evolving technology then
maybe people will be able to accept the poem. If you cannot justify
the poem on any reasonable grounds then your critics and readers will
laugh at you. Loudly.

- One very good thing to remember when writing an experimental piece
is to plan it, and develop the cultural and philosophical ideas which
will support it, long before actually putting pen to paper (or finger
to keyboard).

- This is an Experimental Forum. Most experiments fail. When your
poetic alchemy blows the roof off the laboratory, you need to shrug
your shoulders, sweep up the mess, and then review what happened to
see if there are any lessons to be learned from the failure.

- Finally, with the right attitude, and a little time, Experimental
Poetry can be great fun. Please enjoy your visit with us at the
wierder side of the muse.

Here are some further links to experimental poetry resources and
examples. We may add more as they come to light.

Archive for New Poetry - Mandeville Special Collections Library, UC San Diego: http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/collects/anp.html

Interviews with Poets: http://www.interviews-with-poets.com/poetry-directory/poetry-contemporary.html

Interactive poems - intersign perspective for experimental poetry: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Lights/7323/philadelpho.html

strange and twisted: http://prolix.nu/strange/st_index.html

Spencer Selby's List of Experimental Poetry/Art Magazines: http://www.poetrypress.com/selby/


Rik

[Harry Rutherford]

Looks pretty good to me.

I liked the school desks poem especially.

I thought possibly the Clemente Padin was a bit much for an introductory blurb - it would be rather heavy going even if it wasn't apparently badly translated from Spanish and badly spell-checked. But I might just be revealing my own prejudices and limitations.

As I say, subject to further suggestions and a show of hands, I'd be pleased to have you post it to Experimental.

One thing that did occur to me - should we either allow HTML code in Exp. or (as a special case) allow people to link to their poems posted elsewhere?

If so we'd need some clarification somewhere (each poem linked to counts as one poem posted maybe?)

Any further thoughts anyone?

Harry