Instant poetry

[Scavella]

Here's my gripe:

I believe poetry to be the distillation of language to create works that speak to both sides of the human brain. To achieve this, the poet uses all the tools available to the writer and uses them well. She understands, consciously and/or intuitively, how language affects readers and listeners, and plays on those effects to create works that have multiple meanings. To achieve those effects takes careful work, the result of plenty of thought and craft.

This is why I have very little patience with people who come to this site with the attitude of "tell me what's wrong with my poem so I can fix it". These are often the people who post indiscriminately, who revise in five minutes and post the result, and who stick notes in Gripes and Newbies asking mods and regulars to look at their poems or whining about the lack of responses. They are also often the people who believe poetry to be

the irregular
placing
of words
on a page

without knowing much else about it, or about the language for that matter; they are not always the people who "write from the heart" (those people don't really believe that their work can be improved), but they have a few things in common with the heart-set, including an inability to recognize the weaknesses in their own work. The difference between them and the heart-set is that they want other people to do the work for them: to find the weaknesses and point them out, preferably line by line.

Here's my point.

There is no such thing as instant poetry. Instant crap, perhaps, but not instant poetry. Even those "geniuses" who appear to pen memorable verse at the first sitting have either spent plenty of time thinking about their lines before even picking up a pen, or have prepared the ground by reading so much that beautiful language comes naturally to them; there is nothing "instant" even about genius.

My second point is this: no one can write your poem for you. The mods and regulars at this site have done a whole lot of ground work, and we tolerate a far broader range of abilities than many other workshop sites out there. When a regular tells a newbie to "Read Blurbs" or "Read Voyages" that is not a cop-out on his part; chances are he has contributed to a thread on the very weaknesses he sees in the poem before him, and that thread is sitting, preserved for posterity, in Blurbs.

The bottom line: laziness does not create poetry; whatever else poetry is, it involves work. Whether that work is reading more poems so that one gets a better understanding of the range and power of poetry, or reading books about poetry to see what other people say about it, or reading other people's posts and thinking about what's right and wrong, or writing crits, or working out the kinks in one's own poems for oneself, it is still work. Without it, there is no poetry.

There's no fairy godmother, no wand that can make a pumpkin into a coach, a mouse into a stallion, or

a group of
words

irregularly
spaced

into a poem.

Sorry.

Scavella

[EllenMoran]

The patience and restraint that the mods here do show towards the "gimme" horde never ceases to amaze me -- I wish I had half as much as you all demonstrate. The Blurbs are an invaluable resource and I, for one, appreciate knowing that I can look through a discussion on whatever the major problem of the moment is with my work.

No fairy godmother? Then who's that old lady that keeps appearing in my bedroom?

Now, it sounds like a round of drinks is in order (claps on the back are harder to send across continents, and the drinks taste better anyway). Who needs one?

Ellen
virtual bartender

[Dunc]

'What is written without effort is in general read without pleasure.'
     Dr Johnson

[Ted]

If one more person says, "Poetry is one's soul poured from the heart onto the page," I'm going to maim someone. Who's teaching them this horseshit anyway?

Ted

[This message has been edited by Tedward (edited 09-18-2002).]

[Howard Miller]

The same people who are teaching them self-esteem rather than grammar.


Howard

[Rik Roots]

Originally posted by Howard Miller:
The same people who are teaching them self-esteem rather than grammar.


Howard

I blame the parents myself, mollycoddling the kids when they should be working hard to provide them with a full set of complexes.

Rik, knee deep

[River Not]

I agreed on "read", but I hope you don't mind if I gab a bit without leaving much to bite behind.


"She understands, consciously and/or intuitively, how language affects readers and listeners, ..."

I think there is an error in setting up a comparison between intuitive understanding and conscious understanding.

because, intuition utilizes recognition, and recognition, of course, requires cognition: self awareness; conscious distinction. To have a "hunch" is to have decided, I think.


[This message has been edited by crowbowsow (edited 09-18-2002).]

[Tony Smith]

Good thread, Scavella. Your point reminds me of the opening in William Mathews' Mingus at The Showplace:

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for this was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature....


Tony



[This message has been edited by Tony Smith (edited 09-18-2002).]

[dew4love2]

snipped

[This message has been edited by dew4love2 (edited 10-04-2002).]

[Dunc]

Dear Miss Scavella

Your wonderful poem the irregular / placing / of words / on a page has already won you a prize. See your masterwork printed in our forthcoming Eternal Gems from the Soul of Poesie by forwarding only US$49.99. Add $7.99 for the mug and of course $24.99 for the apron.

Poetry.com

[trillion]

Originally posted by Dunc McReil:
Dear Miss Scavella

Your wonderful poem the irregular / placing / of words / on a page has already won you a prize. See your masterwork printed in our forthcoming Eternal Gems from the Soul of Poesie by forwarding only US$49.99. Add $7.99 for the mug and of course $24.99 for the apron.

Poetry.com

or, alternatively:

Dear Miss Scavella,

I am the Infallible Poetry Critic, and I truly believe "Instant Poetry" to be one of the best I have ever read.

You are gifted with words and possessed of a poetic heart, Scavella! The work of Walt Whitman pales by comparison. If he knew of you, he would be your biggest fan.

I am stimulated by your suave aptitude for eye-opening themes and tempos. From your poem's entrancing start to its superlative summation, you have produced a timeless classic. Everyone will soon be saying "There's no fairy godmother, no wand that can make a pumpkin into a coach, a mouse into a stallion..." is an epiphany. Instant Poetry is absolutely astonishing, and I shall have it carved on the pillars of our community library.

(By the way, I must say that you have made me realize that we really can all get along, if we just try. I'm sure you hear that all the time; I hope you don't mind me mentioning it.)

Please do come back and see me soon. I can't wait to read your next poem. Each one is my new favorite. What is your secret?


Please, let me critique another of your masterpieces.


Kind Regards,
The Infallible Poetry Critic.

But on a serious note: I love your threads, Scavella. I've taken to lurking through the upper fora, the Blurbs of Wisdom, Picks of the Litter, Charon's, etc, and you are one of the people I am learning the most from. Thank you. http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/poetry_forums/smile.gif

trillion



[This message has been edited by trillion (edited 10-04-2002).]

[Scavella]

Originally posted by Dunc McReil:
Dear Miss Scavella

Your wonderful poem the irregular / placing / of words / on a page has already won you a prize. See your masterwork printed in our forthcoming Eternal Gems from the Soul of Poesie by forwarding only US$49.99. Add $7.99 for the mug and of course $24.99 for the apron.

Poetry.com

Quick, where's the checkbook?

Lessee ... one for Mummy, one for Daddy, one for each grandmother, four for the nephews and nieces, one for each of the cousins, that's 27 so far, and a mug for all of the people who helped me get to this lofty peak ... 53 ... an apron for dinner parties ... mmbll ... mrmrmble ... zzzzzz ...

Oh, and trillion, thanks.

[Howard Miller]

Oooh, still more "Blurbs" fodder.

At this rate, it's not going to be long before we're gonna need "Blurbs II: They're B-a-a-a-a-k."


Howard

[Clive2]

Blurbs II - this time, it's personal!

Applause for Scavella.

Death to the infidels.

[Jeff Townsend]

I can only add what a few experts had to say on this subject without any opinion as to who may be right or wrong:

To have great poets there must be great audiences too.
- Walt Whitman

Poetry is being, not doing.
- E.E. Cummings

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words.
- Robert Frost

Of our conflicts with others we make rhetoric; of our conflicts with ourselves we make poetry.
- William Butler Yeats

No man was ever yet a great poet, without being at the same time a profound philosopher. For poetry is the blossom and the fragrance of all human knowledge, human thoughts, human passions, emotions, language.
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Poetry should be great and unobtrusive, a thing which enters into one's soul, and does not startle it or amaze it with itself, but with it's subject.
- John Keats

The gap between verse and poetry is enormous. Between good poetry and good prose the gap is much narrower.
- Michael Longley

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.
- Edward R. Murrow

A poet's object is not to tell what actually happened but what could or would happen either probably or inevitably .... For this reason poetry is something more scientific and serious than history, because poetry tends to give general truths while history gives particular facts.
- Aristotle

A poet's work is to name the unnamable, to point at frauds, to take sides, start arguments, shape the world, and stop it from
going to sleep.
- Salman Rushdie

With this pen I take in hand my selves and with these dead disciples I will grapple. Though rain curses the window let the poem be made.
- Anne Sexton

Poetry is either something that lives like fire inside you - like music to the musician . . . or else it is nothing, an empty, formalized bore
around which pedants can endlessly drone their notes and explanations.
- F. Scott Fitzgerald

Poetry is the music of the soul, and, above all, of great and feeling souls.
- Voltaire

The true philosopher and the true poet are one, and a beauty, which is truth, and a truth, which is beauty, is the aim of both.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Poetry, even when apparently most fantastic,
is always a revolt against artifice, a volt,
in a sense, against actuality.
- James Joyce

Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings.
- William Wordsworth

Toilet paper poetry can be found everywhere,
every sheet looks just like every other sheet.
- Kenneth Rexroth

Writers who tailor their message to popular opinion work amid crowds where truth is subjective and always wrong. Solitary perception becomes indisputable when there is absolute and uncompromised independence
from the group, and like genuine poetry is only worthwhile when it arises within the individual, not from content set forth by its authoritative command.
- Soren Kierkegaard


JT

[dew4love2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Townsend:
I can only add what a few experts had to say on this subject without any opinion as to who may be right or wrong:
[b]To have great poets there must be great audiences too.
- Walt Whitman
Poetry is being, not doing.
- E.E. Cummings
Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words.
- Robert Frost
Of our conflicts with others we make rhetoric; of our conflicts with ourselves we make poetry.
- William Butler Yeats
No man was ever yet a great poet, without being at the same time a profound philosopher. For poetry is the blossom and the fragrance of all human knowledge, human thoughts, human passions, emotions, language.
- Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Poetry should be great and unobtrusive, a thing which enters into one's soul, and does not startle it or amaze it with itself, but with it's subject.
- John Keats
The gap between verse and poetry is enormous. Between good poetry and good prose the gap is much narrower.
- Michael Longley
Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.
- Edward R. Murrow
A poet's object is not to tell what actually happened but what could or would happen either probably or inevitably .... For this reason poetry is something more scientific and serious than history, because poetry tends to give general truths while history gives particular facts.
- Aristotle
A poet's work is to name the unnamable, to point at frauds, to take sides, start arguments, shape the world, and stop it from
going to sleep.
- Salman Rushdie
With this pen I take in hand my selves and with these dead disciples I will grapple. Though rain curses the window let the poem be made.
- Anne Sexton
Poetry is either something that lives like fire inside you - like music to the musician . . . or else it is nothing, an empty, formalized bore
around which pedants can endlessly drone their notes and explanations.
- F. Scott Fitzgerald
Poetry is the music of the soul, and, above all, of great and feeling souls.
- Voltaire
The true philosopher and the true poet are one, and a beauty, which is truth, and a truth, which is beauty, is the aim of both.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Poetry, even when apparently most fantastic,
is always a revolt against artifice, a volt,
in a sense, against actuality.
- James Joyce
Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings.
- William Wordsworth
Toilet paper poetry can be found everywhere,
every sheet looks just like every other sheet.
- Kenneth Rexroth
Writers who tailor their message to popular opinion work amid crowds where truth is subjective and always wrong. Solitary perception becomes indisputable when there is absolute and uncompromised independence
from the group, and like genuine poetry is only worthwhile when it arises within the individual, not from content set forth by its authoritative command.
- Soren Kierkegaard
JT
Thanks for the wide variety of views. Right or wrong, even the poets agree, everyone sees the same in their own way.
<Inhaling the smell>
That in itself is pure poetry!
Donna

[Dunc]

I dunno. Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings. - that William Wordsworth character's going to end up in Outside real quick if he keeps on like that. Regards / Dunc

[Howard Miller]

Fortunately, the rest of the quotation saves Willie from the horror of the heartwriting school: "Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful emotion recollected in tranquillity."

[Clive2]

An Argument with Wordsworth

'Poetry . . . takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquillity'

(Preface to the Lyrical Ballads)

People are always quoting that and all of them seem to agree
And it's probably most unwise to admit that it's different for me.
I have emotion - no one who knows me could fail to detect it
But there's a serious shortage of tranquillity in which to recollect it.
So this is my contribution to the theoretical debate:
Sometimes poetry is emotion recollected in a highly emotional state.

Wendy Cope

[This message has been edited by Clive2 (edited 10-05-2002).]

[trillion]

Originally posted by Jeff Townsend:
[B.]Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.
- Edward R. Murrow[/b]

Go tell that to George "Haiku" Bush!!

Poetry is the music of the soul, and, above all, of great and feeling souls.
- Voltaire

Hiya, Voltaire.
I'm very sorry to say that this just won't do. Abstractions, such as this, will not serve your writing well. I suggest you read through the Blurbs of Wisdom and try lurking a around here a little longer. Perhaps the PPoP will be more to your liking? There are lots of feeling souls over there, and each of them are making some lovely soul music. In the meantime, please try not to post here after imbibing of the Green Fairy.

Regards,
trillion.

[Neoma]

DearScavella:

After reading your post, I decided to cut and paste a copy into my computer. I have learned alot from this poetry site. However,if one does want to become a better writer, if one wants to inprove the quality of their, then does not an individual have to start somewhere? I mean, someone for example might just wake up one day and think, "Today, I want to learn how to write poetry. I'm going to begin by using this site"

At this point in time, I can't register into a Creative Writing class. Perhaps in the near future. I think Howard posted some site about learning English punctuation etc. I have gotten so comfortable getting by without using English technical grammer. Someone like Buzz (a nice teacher I might add) gave me a wake up call. I realized that I need to relearn where commas go, how to create pauses, and linebreaks. I don't have a clue about poetry jagon;which by the way, I would love to learn. I want to learn the different poetry styles. I even copied lots of info from the Wisdom forum (wonderful to read)
So, when I write a poem and place it, I take it as a learning opportunity and I do need that "extra push" from someone with more experience in formal English grammar.

This site, has created a paradigm shift for me regarding my poetry. Thank you so much for having this site =)

[Howard Miller]

"This site, has created a paradigm shift for me regarding my poetry. Thank you so much for having this site"

This is exactly why Béla created PFFA in the first place, and we certainly appreciate hearing that it has achieved its purpose for you.

For help with grammar, here's an excellent (and inexpensive) book:

The Most Common Mistakes in English Usage by Thomas Elliott Berry (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070050538/102-1888217-9784167)

The "Blurbs" and other forums can get you started on improving your knowledge and understanding of poetry, but studying such books as those on the "Recommended Reading List" by Mary Oliver, Laurence Perrine, and Steve Kowit is a further step.

Good luck.


Howard